If there is not a government that forces people to make tax payments to maintain this infrastructure andthere are not enough volunteers to pay for this system, it will fail.

Exactly. The possibility of failure is the price paid for free will. It also provides you an incentive to work with others who are also obsessed with water and sewage to come up with a plan that is workable without government force.

You seem to ignore the fundimental reasons why such a system was created in the first place and do not want to address how such a system will be maintained in a liberty based society.

It is irrelevant how they will maintained. Either they will or they won’t. If you can’t figure out how to come up with a plan that doesn’t involve robbing your neighbors at gunpoint then maybe you should live out in the boonies and dig a well?

What happens to these systems when you no longer have a government to force collection of payments in the form of service fees and taxes to maintain them?

If these systems can’t adapt to being voluntary services, they will fail. Me? I’ll just move into a neighborhood that includes all these services for a monthly fee and spend my time dealing with more important matters.

Yet the “don’t tread on me crowd” will not acknowledge how such systems benefit everyone. They seems to be selfish as say I did not conset and I will not be forced to concent and I don’t have true ownership of the property if I am force to pay for such things and the same time taking the benefit.

You seem to be under the delusion that we all just want to be a bunch of jackasses once we’re free to choose. While there will be the occasional jackass miser, most of us just want to go about our lives without having the government pick our pockets and obligate us to things we disagree with.

If government is handling the water and sewage now by force, there is no reason not to believe some enterprising capitalist or two in search of profits can’t do it without force. After all, I go to Best Buy or Target to purchase certain products but nobody from those companies comes over to my house, tells me I have to buy from them, or throws me in a cage if I refuse. I buy from them because it’s convenient and reasonably priced. Not because someone sticks a gun to my head and says “pay up ’cause we’re the only game in town.”.

Your first problem in comprehending what a free society would be like is your assumption that it will function drastically different than what we have now. It isn’t the function so much that will be different (save for the absence of being forced to do things you don’t want to do or else) but rather the benefits. In a free society, you will only pay for what you consume and explicitly contract to use. So long as you don’t infringe upon the rights of others, you are essentially left to your devices. Should you come into conflict with others, it is the victims of your actions that you would pay restitution to rather than The State.

I ask:

The public infrastructure is a great benefit to society that has enabled the people to use the land in a manner that creates a situation that enabled people to reap financial benefits from smaller parcels of property . In my example , if you do not use the water that flows from the public water system and dump waste into the public sewer system you do not pay for it directly.

If there is not a government that forces people to make tax payments to maintain this infrastructure andthere are not enough volunteers to pay for this system, it will fail.

You seem to ignore the fundimental reasons why such a system was created in the first place and do not want to address how such a system will be maintained in a liberty based society.

The cities of modern America would not have come into existance with out a “central way” to deal with water, waster water and stormwater management across actificial boundaries such as property lines and lines that deliniate cities and towns.

The “movement” says they demand that private property rights be respected and that an individual should be able to do no harm to other it their use of their property and should be free of a bureaucrat forcing them do do something.

The fact that “government” created an infrastrucure that allows you to benefit from a property in such a manner that would not be possible without the benefit of a water, wastewater and strom water management system seems to be lost in this discussion.

The soil shape and topography of land dictates how it is able to perculate waste from the houses plumbing and if there is water in the earth with the lot lines and itf there is enough room to bury trash.

People came up with the idea to centralize thes services hundreds of years ago to promote the general health safety and welfare of a larger area than just someones private property.

What happens to these systems when you no longer have a government to force collection of payments in the form of service fees and taxes to maintain them?

This is the answer Zeus gives:

Now, if you really want to live in some kind of commune where someone tells you what to do and takes a portion of what you earn, you could still do that in a free society: Just go get a bunch of neighbors together, form an association and elect a neighborhood dictator, czar or grand poobah to rule over the rest of you and who will deal with water treatment plants and sewage for you and your fellow members. So long as you don’t force others to join your group, you should get along with everyone else just fine.

Zeus,

I think the “movement” does not know how to answer the question of how to deal with issues that cross “private property boundaries”. The health and safety issues solved by a central water, sewer and stormwater management system take a back seat to “don’t tread on me”.

Yet the “don’t tread on me crowd” will not acknowledge how such systems benefit everyone. They seems to be selfish as say I did not conset and I will not be forced to concent and I don’t have true ownership of the property if I am force to pay for such things and the same time taking the benefit.

If you or any other freestater believes that they could remove themselves from the grid and still maintain a property fit for human habitation, is there an example of how this would work.

Did someone cut the pipes at their private property line ansd provide an alternate means of potable water and wastewater disposal. Did they also cut the electric and gas lines? what about the cable? All of these systems are tied to the governments force andif you do not conset to the governments force you should not benefit from it either. Do you rely on the fire department? what about the public road? will you stop using this means of travel? how will you exit your private property to get groceries if you can not longer benefit from the “public infrastructure?

When I ask how simple services will be provided in a liberty based society thebest you can do is tell me to ask a real estate developer?

If you can’t tell me how to provide for basic sanitary services in a liberty based society how would a real estate developer be able to tell me?

Your first problem in comprehending what a free society would be like is your assumption that it will function drastically different than what we have now. It isn’t the function so much that will be different (save for the absence of being forced to do things you don’t want to do or else) but rather the benefits. In a free society, you will only pay for what you consume and explicitly contract to use. So long as you don’t infringe upon the rights of others, you are essentially left to your devices. Should you come into conflict with others, it is the victims of your actions that you would pay restitution to rather than The State.

Your second problem in comprehending a free society is that by your very questions regarding the finer details regarding how things will operate, it’s obvious that you seek the order and safety of central one-size-fits-all central planning. I say this because you are asking about the smallest details on how a free society would operate as if they’d all work the same. The very fact that people will be free to choose for themselves what’s best means that there will be no single one-size-fits-all method of operating a free society. Some will choose methods that work better than others. Some will choose worse. The fundamental difference between that and what we have now is that you don’t have that option to choose. You’re stuck with the local government and it’s diktats or else.

Now, if you really want to live in some kind of commune where someone tells you what to do and takes a portion of what you earn, you could still do that in a free society: Just go get a bunch of neighbors together, form an association and elect a neighborhood dictator, czar or grand poobah to rule over the rest of you and who will deal with water treatment plants and sewage for you and your fellow members. So long as you don’t force others to join your group, you should get along with everyone else just fine.

I am no troll and I am doing what I think is best to shape the world I live in.

The “movement” has said it is a bad world becasue government uses force to arbitrarily subject people to its will.

I buy into the concept of liberty and freedom. I buy into the concept of doing away with bad government actors.

When I ask how simple services will be provided in a liberty based society thebest you can do is tell me to ask a real estate developer?

If you can’t tell me how to provide for basic sanitary services in a liberty based society how would a real estate developer be able to tell me?

I know how they are brought into existance and maintained in this current “government by force scenario”, (I will remind you I am one of those evil servants that hears developers and builders proposals that need permission from government by way or a zoning variance and special permits).

In todays “government by force world” the developer gets his plans approved by the government. He gets to hook up to the municipal water and sewer pipes after paying the appropriate fees . The property owner then gets bills for the water and sewer service based on water consumption at a rate set by the municipality to maintain the infrastructure. If the owner does not pay the bill his property is liened and then sold to satify the lien.

The “liberty based society ” people prevail and the government by force is overthrown by reason.

My existing house and the people living there still depend on the infrastructure to live in the house since the land is not big enough to support a well or a septic system ( you see the government by force help create habitable dwellings that could not have been brought into existance without someone creating the infrastrucure).

Is someone now operating the water treatment and sewer treatment plants for profit? Did the treatment plants get shut down becasue no one was forced to pay the bills becasue force has been over come by reason?

Will I have to buy large tanks that need to be filled with water and large tanks that will be pumped regularly becasue no one knows how to fund the existing infrastructure?

If the “movement” really hopes to bring about a sea change in peoples hearts and minds regarding the “failed government by force” shouldn’t it have a clear vision of what type of system will replace it.

If the “movement” cannot explain in detail how large public infrastrucure the urbanized areas of our nation will remain in operation to protect life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I suggest to you and the readers that it will never come to pass.

Making reference to me being a troll or telling me I should go ask a real estate developer doesn’t address the issue except to get it off of your specific plate.

In the current system we still have means to defend ourselves. You helped me make a point by saying that the majority of the “government” is corrupt. If you cant find good people to be our servants now, what changes the hearts of people in a liberty based society? If it is going to be totally different people that you in particular a comfortable with, are they moving to populate the positions of government now?

Defend ourselves? Ah, you must mean calling the police when your home is being broken into and hoping they show up eventually. If you shoot the intruder, after all, your’re probably going to jail. And that’s with a government approved weapon, no less.

The way you automatically assume people will have or be “servants” speaks magnitudes about how you see others. Here’s something you can try at home: Whatever it is, do it yourself instead of forcing someone else.

As far as populating government offices, nobody would spend millions of dollars campaigning to get a $120,000 a yeas job unless their bread was getting buttered elsewhere.

This nation got lost along the way. We were given a republic , we just could not keep it and devolved into a tryrannically run democracy.

I won’t argue that. The experiment, however well-intentioned, has failed disastrously. Assuming there even was a magic reset button, would you want to spend the next 200 years watching it fail again?

As for the question about the water, wastewater and storm water systems I am wondering what would happen to the existing infrastructure when the “liberty based society” reach critical mass? Voluntary payments right? I dont think the example about a vacant piece of land adresses my concern. If not enough people volunteer to maintain the currently buried water and sewer pipes and they fail, how is that good for protecting my liberty and freedom?

Well, for one, no one would make you pay for some water and sewage system you weren’t using. Your odds of being without those services are directly proportionate to the odds of you renting land that doesn’t supply them. I can’t give you an answer that will satisfy your desire to use force on people. Do you really think people would NOT want these services? If it’s a legitimate concern and not just trolling, I suggest directing your question towards someone in the real estate development field. If you think it’s okay to just take money from people for services they may not even use, I could you an invoice for a computer repair I just gave someone else.

This nation got lost along the way. We were given a republic , we just could not keep it and devolved into a tryrannically run democracy.

As for the question about the water, wastewater and storm water systems I am wondering what would happen to the existing infrastructure when the “liberty based society” reach critical mass? Voluntary payments right? I dont think the example about a vacant piece of land adresses my concern. If not enough people volunteer to maintain the currently buried water and sewer pipes and they fail, how is that good for protecting my liberty and freedom?

Not wanting to be “controlled” by bureacratics ushered in the liberty based society and all I have to show for it is no water and sewer system and I have to get creative to provide services to my current tenants of I will lose my investment wont I?

Sure you could privatize the water and sewer system as the transition form government bureacrats to a customer service based provider like the power company or the gas company but isn’t that just changing the name on the letterhead ? Since government wasrestained from making a profit, what prevents tthe private water and sewer company from aqueezing people to make a profit from the shareholders? Lets see if the people in New Hampshire are sucessful in throwing off the non performing power company , you know the one that left people in the dark for 2 weeks after the major ice storm.

The law is force.” Bastiat
“Use the force,” Yoda

Actually, I just asked why you’d want to voluntarily give control over yourself to people you don’t trust and relinquish your rights to defend yourself. I never said they have no purpose — I fully believe that 2% of them are not corrupt.

“Tell that to a victum that has seen the police catch the crook and the courts have convicted.”

How about I tell that to my partner who was handcuffed and shoved into the back of a cop car for someone claiming she was suicidal? How about my own car getting stolen and the cops showing up 2 1/2 hours later, calling me for leads on the case, and eventually charging me $600 to get it out of an impound in another state? How about my uncle getting shot in the face? Hell, while we’re at it, how about the alarming amount of puppycide police have been committing lately. I’d ask this alleged person you mention, if I actually knew anyone the police had ever helped in the past.

“It is the people that populate the government you have an issue with, so change the people in the governmet.”

This has failed to work up to and including now. The corrupt people in power have not obeyed their own rules or the rules of democracy.

“I doubt very much that any replacement of the form of government will acomplish anything greater.”

Even if I believed it would improve nothing, it is in all manner of interpretation wrong to victimize people and force them to your will.

“I have seen very little in the way of substance with repect to this “liberty based” society the
“movement ” wants to institue.”

Arguably because we have no liberty to speak of.

“A court of arbitration, that is the use of force isn’t it? Is it for civil matter and criminal matters?”

I’d suggest that a person who opted out of arbitration would probably not be very popular, and that he would likely be socially ostracized. If he was not guilty, he would probably want to clear his name and then be compensated for his lost time by his accuser. That’s just my expectations, since you threw all this at me.

“The concept of volunteering to pay for the “public infrastrructure” does not tell me what kind of public infrastructure we will have in this “new society”.”

I suppose the highway system would manage the way it did before the government took it over. It’s in the best interests of businesses to keep roads maintained, and would be much easier to pay for if everyone was allowed to keep their money. I know I’d sure be willing to give a little to keep the roads in my area up. I believe this is what the gas tax is suppose dto be for currently, so again there is no current justifiable reason to steal money from people directly.

“Tell me what happens to the municipal water and sewer system and how it gets paid for? Is there a need for it in the “liberty based society? Will I have to buy water off of a truck and have a different truck take my waste daily? A well and a septic works on 10 acres in the woods but does not work on a 6500 square foot building lot in an urban neighborhood.”

I imagine that is is in the interests of a landowner to work in conjunction with his neighbors to increase the value of both of their property, though I suppose it’s possible you could have a water-tank filling service if that is what you want. Incidentally, it’s also possible to share a well with other people. Would someone be likely to move onto a piece of land which has no chance for water/sewage services of some type? Probably not, which means the land will sit in the hands of its owner, probably making them no money when they could have been renting it out. The incentive is always there to improve.

I don’t have all the answers, but I hope this helps you to understand a couple of the issues you’re asking about.

Water, wastewater and stormwater system are essential to public health and economic development ans require a very large investment to establish and maintain. Do you expect anyone to believe that people will volunteer to pay for these systems and those that don’t pay can still use them?

How much do you think a 3 family in the heart of Manchester NH or Lowell MA would be if it did not have public water and sewer? Would it even be inhabitable? Should I get to own it and rent it out if I get to use water and the sewer system for free?

What about water to fight the fire when the apartment catches fire from food on the stove. Will the “fire department have the equipment , water and man power to prevent a conflagration? will I be relying on un paid volunteers with hoses and pumps that they paid for to hook up to a water hydrant that is maintained by the neighborhood watch that might or might not have water?

http://liquidassets.psu.edu/

If no one has an answer for this type of question then how can the “movement” hope to reach a critical mass in any one geoprahpical area?

What good is it to say we want to gather 20000 freedom and liberty loving porcupines into a single municipality to populate a “liberty based society” if no one has the answers to this type of question?

I am all for taking on the abuse in a municipality, that is why I a town meeting member where I live. That is why I am climbing the political ladder to eventually get elected as a state representitive.

The very first election I put my name of the ballot for was for a state rep seat. Silly me thought running as a Libertarian against the encumbent who had been in office since the year I was born without any financial support or an organization. I did get 21% of the vote without campaigning or a single sign.

I realized you cant start at the top, you need money to get well known and you need to meet the people in the district you plan on winning in, no matter what the seat. You also need to have some type of public serve thru appointed boards committee and commissions.

I am finding that the elected and appointed servants are just plain people that have varied understandings of just what government is an is not.I am finding that the paid help has varying degress of commitment to the job or the municipality and that it is always out weighed by their commitment to the paycheck and the benefits.

Land use, zoning, planning real estate and construction are interests in my professional life as well as in my service to the community, that is why I am asking what the “liberty based society ” is supposed to look like ? If you do not know what the result is supposed to look like you can’t build it.

The few that abuse the “force” that they exercise you see the need to be afraid of them all and deem them all to serve no useful purpose?

Tell that to a victum that has seen the police catch the crook and the courts have convicted.

It is the people that populate the government you have an issue with, so change the people in the governmet.

I doubt very much that any replacement of the form of government will acomplish anything greater.

I have seen very little in the way of substance with repect to this “liberty based” society the
“movement ” wants to institue.

A court of arbitration, that is the use of force isn’t it? Is it for civil matter and criminal matters?

The concept of volunteering to pay for the “public infrastrructure” does not tell me what kind of public infrastructure we will have in this “new society”.

Wake the people up to the fact that they have the power to tell the “government” what its limitations are supposed to be.

Tell me what happens to the municipal water and sewer system and how it gets paid for? Is there a need for it in the “liberty based society? Will I have to buy water off of a truck and have a different truck take my waste daily? A well and a septic works on 10 acres in the woods but does not work on a 6500 square foot building lot in an urban neighborhood.