Potential FSP Movers to Keene Threatened
I happened to notice the source of a comment on the most recent Sam update was a City of Keene IP address. Here’s what the commenter had to say in response to a potential new mover to Keene:
Harris and all other prospective “Free Keene” movers:
Why don’t you wait until the new jail is done. Free room and board in a shiny new building. Can’t beat that offer.
The commenter later claims to be someone who was using the public library computers, and denies being a city bureaucrat. Either way, here is a perfect example of some of the people who call themselves “public servants”. Doesn’t sound like a service-oriented individual at all. Sounds to me like a sociopath. If it is a bureaucrat, it’s someone who serves themselves with your stolen tax dollars, and apparently spends some of their working day reading and commenting on this website. I sure would love to stop paying this “servant” for his or her services I don’t want, like locking peaceful people behind bars, but then this “servant” will send their buddies with guns (the Sheriffs) to throw me and my family from the home I thought I owned! Of course, if the “servants” are to be believed, if it weren’t for them stealing from and threatening us, then we would surely live in a chaotic world of aggression! Oh, whatever would we do without them?
Did the anonymous person’s threats scare you? They surely are hoping so. Why else would this person spend time threatening potential movers to Keene unless they themselves were scared? Scared of real, peaceful change. Afraid of the liberty movement and what it could mean for their lust for power over others.
Show them you aren’t intimidated by their threats and post comments as to why you are moving to Keene, and what you’d like to do when you get here.
Comments
100 Comments on Potential FSP Movers to Keene Threatened
This was an unnecessary blog post. Everyone knows the internet is full of trolls. When you read to much into them it doesn’t look good. I have also seen a general trend of FSPers talking over people. Thats bad. Over using catch all phrases like “taxation is theft” ect, is also bad. Stop arguing from a deontological perspective. Deontology is also bad.
Ian, why would want to dignify that “thug” by posting it on freekeene. I can see him now, at his computer reading your response and cackling like a school girl with delight.
Let them cackle. My post stands as an invitation to future movers to show they are not intimidated. You can bet his post is indicative of the attitudes of many statists who read this blog. Let them see that we are not scared of their threats and that more are moving because of them.
i believe the most intimidating concern these potential movers are faced with is whether or not they should forfeit their future to this joke of a movement/group
I signed up as a Free Stater yesterday, knowing that two years out would fit pretty good with my personal goals.
Now I’m thinking I may need to modify those goals by about 20 or so months sooner.
Yes, “.”, why would anyone choose to sacrifice anything to stand up for what they believe in? Nothing matters but money — who needs principles? After all, the ultimate purpose of life is mainly to make sure the TV screen one stares at is large enough, and of high enough resolution, and that the car one drives has the appropriately shaped hood ornament.
I’ll be moving to NH, and I’m looking forward to it. NH is a beautiful state, I don’t consider it a sacrifice at all.
Perhaps you might enjoy this project: http://www.freelunchproject.com/
As a free state project member, all of the things I see going on in Keene have helped me pick Keene as my future home.
I find it rather funny that all of the people who post here with their statist views are all posting anonymously. This leads me to believe that its either bureaucrats or 1 or 2 people posting with several screen names. What do you have to hide from? Or are you that ashamed?
wow! This is a perfect example of what I can’t stand about this group of people. You made such a clueless assumption of my priorities and values without hesitation and with quite a bit of hostility. My point is…if you want to waste countless hours of your life and potentialy your familys life devoted to this dead end group of extremists, feel free…I just felt morally obligated to warn you against making a gigantic mistake.
How is posting anonymously any different from adressing yourself by just a first name, “Andy” ??? Are you frightened to post your full goverment name?
That threat is quite harmless compared to what Makayla and Judge Burke have received. Really, it is a personal choice to wind up in jail…there is no threat involved.
You guys can dish it but you can’t take it, huh?
I wonder if you want the average Keene citizen to be walking around with guns like you do? Do you trust them?
I am not ashamed to signed my name, I just have no reason to trust you. And you will never initiate an open conversation with me with a gun slung on your hip. I promise I am unnarmed and have never even hit anyone, so why not put the gun down to have a conversation like adults?
“I promise I am unnarmed and have never even hit anyone, so why not put the gun down to have a conversation like adults?”
You may never have personally hit someone with your fists, but you support and pay others to hit and imprison those whom you disagree with.
“.”… you seem really hung up on an individual taking precautions with regard to their safety and that of those around them. Are you so concerned with police officer’s firearms? Or tasers? Mace? Knives? Experts in unarmed combat? I’m not seeing any reason for your apparent fear of individuals who carry weapons. What reasons do you have to think that someone (FSP member or not) who open carries is any more likely to use a weapon against you as someone who wasn’t?
The conversation at hand has nothing to do with firearms or individuals carrying them. If you want to have an “adult” conversation you’d stop with the diversions and stick to the particular issues at hand. If you wish to discuss… lets discuss.
wow! This is a perfect example of what I can’t stand about this group of people. You made such a clueless assumption of my priorities and values without hesitation and with quite a bit of hostility. My point is…if you want to waste countless hours of your life and potentialy your familys life devoted to this dead end group of extremists, feel free…I just felt morally obligated to warn you against making a gigantic mistake.
Bullshit, “Period”. You did a troll drive-by and you got busted on it.
…forfeit their future to this joke of a movement/group
Problem #1: You insult the members of a movement based on self-responsibility and personal freedom by attempting to render their activities as meaningless i.e. “a joke”.
Problem #2: You state that the people making the move will “forfeit their future”.
According to one dictionary, the meaning of forfeit is:
1: to lose or lose the right to especially by some error, offense, or crime
2: to subject to confiscation as a forfeit ; also : abandon, give up
So your words mean that people who move will have their future confiscated, the most obvious methods of doing so being death and imprisonment.
So my questions for you are thus:
1. Who will do the “future confiscating”?
2. Do you support this violent life-theft?
Anyone carrying a gun is more likely to use a weapon against me than someone not carrying a gun. It’s simple logic.
Fear of a bullet through my chest is no diversion! And of course this is on-topic. The post was about threats, and a gun slung on your hip is nothing but a threat of violence. You are no better than the police and you are no better than the person who made the “threat” featured on this post.
I’ll let you know that I feel similarly when pulled over by the police and I don’t reserve my fear of guns for free staters.
I wonder if you want the average Keene citizen to be walking around with guns like you do?
I want them to have the freedom to defend themselves, their families and their property regardless of your personal fear of guns. Unlike you, I choose not to impose my will on others. People are free to be armed or unarmed as they wish.
Do you trust them?
I trust that any man or woman foolish enough to initiate unjust and immoral violence against me will be subdued either by myself, my friends, my family and/or other moral people seeking justice on my behalf.
I will not force others to pay out of their pockets for my defense nor will I rely solely on a protection agency that has no accountability to defend me or my family.
I am not ashamed to signed my name, I just have no reason to trust you. And you will never initiate an open conversation with me with a gun slung on your hip. I promise I am unnarmed and have never even hit anyone, so why not put the gun down to have a conversation like adults?
If you choose to live your life in fear and cowardice, that’s your problem, not mine. Having guns on our hips is what may help keep any conversation we have civil and act as a deterrent for violence.
With your views, you must wonder quite a bit how anyone survived to make it out of the Old West. I mean, hell, they all had guns on their hips! It must have been a real slaughterfest back in the late 1800′s, right?
Only in Hollywood movies, kid. Go study some real history.
How can you determine who has a gun and who doesn’t? If I recall correctly gun crime in states with less gun restrictions is less than in those with stricter laws, per capita. The truth that someone without a gun can not shoot you is pointless given you can not ever know for sure that a person isn’t packing. And since the evidence has shown that in places where people are theoretically more likely to carry there is less gun crime your argument would seemingly fall apart.
I’m glad you feel at least the same with police but I think to be intellectually honest here you should have provided that upfront. You allowed for this confusion.
I do think your fear is unfounded. At least in that you fear police and those who carry otherwise equally. The police are given an elevated authority and immunities which no one else has besides other bureaucrats. If you don’t believe that that incentives those individuals to act more violently (and that they do act more violently per capita) you aren’t paying attention to the evidence.
As for having a gun implies a threat of violence. Yes it does. So does learning a martial art form for defense. Violence in and of itself is morally neutral unless you are a passivist. Aggression is on the otherhand an illegitimate act and owning and/or carrying a gun openly or otherwise is not an aggressive act in and of itself. You have to provide more evidence to the contrary here. I’ve been around lots of individuals open carrying many times and at no point was an aggressive act of any sort taken.
As I asked prior… do you fear mace, martial arts, key rings, knives, etc?
OK. Let’s cut the through the madness. People that carry a gun other than the police or a criminal aren’t going to shoot anyone just because they can. They carry it for protection. Some LEO’s on the other will shoot you just because they can and they will.
As for having a gun implies a threat of violence. Yes it does. So does learning a martial art form for defense. Violence in and of itself is morally neutral unless you are a passivist. Aggression is on the otherhand an illegitimate act and owning and/or carrying a gun openly or otherwise is not an aggressive act in and of itself.
Very good points, Bile. While a gun is a dangerous weapon, the act of possessing one for defense is not aggressive in and of itself.
The act of using it offensively to initiate violence or coercion is.
“.”,
I am sorry if I made an unfounded assumption. I had assumed that by “forfeit their future” you meant future career, since this is really the only clear sacrifice I can see movers making — although I suppose some may be farther from family. I was pointing out that standing for what you believe in is never a mistake. Perhaps you could explain what you meant.
Also, if you disagree with my response, remember that your disagreement is with me. To say, “This is a perfect example of what I can’t stand about this group of people” is wrong, because it is I who said it, not any “group of people”. I do hope, however, we can put your flippant remark and my flippant response aside, and have a substantive discussion.
I do think your fear of guns is misplaced. People who want to hurt others will be armed, one way or another — if the person you are talking to is responsibly open carrying, they are far more likely to save your life by deterring a potential attacker, or defending you against them, than cause you any harm. Furthermore, even if violent people were somehow unarmed, they would find other ways to harm people, as have been described.
Also, although I myself do not carry a weapon, I certainly would be happy to live in an armed society. Crime would be practically nil.
I wouldn’t say I fear police, but I certainly am wary of them. It’s not because they’re armed, however, it’s because of the numerous and increasing reports of police abuse, and enforcement of victimless crimes.
“John Doe” – I always post with my website. Not that hard to find out who I am and to verify that it is indeed me making these posts.
This threatening comment, and many others traceable to a single City of Keene IP address, came from an IP address ending in 67. The public library’s IP address for its public computers, as best I can tell, is the next address, which ends in 68. Still not sure which city bureaucracy 67 comes from, but someone was using it in the middle of the night (1:43 am) on at least one occasion, so I’d say it probably isn’t the public computers at the library. Unless of course they’re open 24 hours now. So, three guesses which city bureaucracy has people there 24 hours a day?
Quote from the “period”
“…if you want to waste countless hours of your life and potentialy your familys life devoted to this dead end group of extremists, feel free…I just felt morally obligated to warn you against making a gigantic mistake.”
And you wonder why other’s comments towards you are negative. You sir or madame are a douche.
Well, my moving plans still have not changed. I still look forward to moving to NH and getting involved.
My moving plans haven’t changed either only my motivation to try to get to New Hampshire sooner.
Has it occurred to anybody that who ever made that comment was either trying to be humorous or trolling?
This is a blog open to anybody who wants to comment so you going to get people saying crap you might not like & people are entitled to hold whatever opinion they might have foolish, stupid or other.
In just this one incident — caused by the authoritarians themselves — the entire Keene Police Department was so overwhelmed, they had to call in county and state police to “back them up” in dealing with maybe a dozen or so peaceful people. People who have learned that hitting others and taking their stuff is immoral and unjust.
It is fearful obedience that gives these authoritarians their perceived power. The threat of violence is the tool they use to achieve it.
What are they going to do when there are two dozen peaceful activists monitoring their actions and refusing to obey? Fifty? A hundred?
We don’t need 20,000 activists to make a difference right here, right now. But imagine what it would be like, if there were 20,000 in the state of New Hampshire? 20,000 in Keene?
What will they do then?
When the majority of people not only tell then “No.” but also refuse to give them the excuse to use violence, what can they do? The more they crack down, the more they expose their system for what it is.
Paul, I posted this on the Sentinel page, but I know those go away after a certain number of days and I actually do want to have a conversation about the general issue. I feel you’re doing a fairly good job of respectfully describing your opinions, unlike some of the other libertarians on here and there. The attitude of some other posters is very condescending, antagonistic and aggressive. (To the rest: Please don’t start with the “who’s aggressive now, huh? You have thugs with guns steal my house” line. I think I’m a fairly good example of someone in the main stream who actually wants to have a conversation, and you will lose me and many others if you keep that up.)
Back to Paul, and please forgive me if some of the times I refer to “you” or “your positions,” they aren’t things you might have said, but I feel you’re coming from a liberatarian standpoint, and I’m questioning some points others might have made…
You talk about drawing the line when there is a victim. What about the case of someone selling herion? As I understand your views right now, they should have the “right” to their “business” and the buyer should have the “right” to their choice.
But heroin is a far cry from marijuana, which btw I support legalizing. Heroin is not a victimless drug, it ruins lives. The addict is a victim, and so are the people they steal from to get money for it, and the family they destroy on the way.
Where do you really draw the line?
And I don’t see how the libertarian/Free Stater/whoever problem with zoning. I have the RIGHT to choose which zone I buy property in so I know what I’m getting into. I have the RIGHT not to buy property and build a home and a life, only to have someone move next to me and set up a strip cub, or a factory. Zoning is there to protect my rights. If you want to build a strip club or a factory, there are places for those. Because I live in a town with zoning, thank god, the place for them isn’t next to my home or school.
And for guns: “You” talk about freedom, with the general principal being, “Regulations and restrictions aren’t necessary. We are at heart decent people, intelligent people, and reasonable people. We can handle guns responsibly.”
I don’t see the connection between asking for that kind of freedom on the basis of people being so wonderful, and then the need to protect yourself because people are so bad and evil. Either people are good, or people are bad.
I come fron the standpoint that people are generally good, and that is why democracy *should* work. We *should* be intelligent and involved enough to elect the right people who will dedicate time everyday people don’t have to running the city. If they turn out not to be good, we will vote them out next time around. I see your standpoint as contradictory to itself… “People are bad, we can’t trust them to be police or government officials. But I’m good, I deserve unlimited access to a gun, which I need because people are bad and want to hurt me and steal from me. ”
If you have a respectful reply, I am curious to know what it is. I sincerely and wholeheartedly tried to stay respectful throughout this post. I apologize if I veered off that intended path. Any negativity is not intentional.
But heroin is a far cry from marijuana, which btw I support legalizing. Heroin is not a victimless drug, it ruins lives. The addict is a victim, and so are the people they steal from to get money for it, and the family they destroy on the way.
A drug does not victimize anyone. Only other humans can. The user who steals is aggressing. It does not matter that they are a user. Many people steal without taking heroin. The stealing is the crime. It matters not what the motivation is. Regardless, making heroin illegal does not stop its use. It creates a black market and increases risk of usage. A friend of mine died a few years ago from ODing on heroin… the laws didn’t stop him obviously. The line is when someone aggresses against another’s property (which includes their person).
Zoning is an illegitimate restriction on one’s supposed property. If you actually own something you may do with it as you wish. You have no right to a stable subjective value others have of your property. If a factory moved in next to you (which would be economically inefficient likely and therefore unlikely) and polluted on your land (chemical, light, sound) then they would be aggressing and you’d have legitimate claims against them for doing so. But if a strip bar springs up and some potential buyer thinks less of the property as a result… no one was agressed against. The truth is you don’t own your property. The state does. That’s why zoning is possible. Read up on fee simple land ownership. It comes from feudalism.
If you want to make the “it’ll lower the value of my property if the neighbors do X” argument… should you also be required to pay neighbors for increasing the value of your property?
I don’t see the connection between asking for that kind of freedom on the basis of people being so wonderful, and then the need to protect yourself because people are so bad and evil. Either people are good, or people are bad.
Guns are tools. They do not possess the ability to infringe on a person’s rights. Only other persons can. Since you have a right to your person you have the right to defend yourself. A gun is a tool enabling that defense. Should you wish to disarm people through the force of government you are acting no different than those who would use the weapon against you to remove you of your wallet.
Democracy (which is not what the US government is) is nothing more than a complicated game of mob rules. It is no more legitimate for 1 million people to tell me how to live as it is for 10 or 1. It isn’t that you can’t trust people. It is that you ought not aggress and the government by its very nature is an instrument to aggress. It’s that you can’t trust individuals not to play out their greater, aggressive, desires when given the power and aura of legitimacy to do so. Those in power abuse it, seek more of it and go on till the system collapses due to its self destructive nature.
No amount of discussion on a forum or comment chain will educate you appropriately in the ideas of liberty, libertarianism, voluntarism. I realize it’s a tall order but I really recommend reading some books on the topics. It will be far clearer and well thought out and any questions can then asked on a more level playing field. One needs to understand the fundamentals, the definitions, etc. before a serious discussion can continue. Otherwise we end up going round and round due to misunderstandings and time wasted on defining every last idea.
Amy these are all great and valid questions.
Heroin:
Its great that you can see that marijuana should be legalized but heroin is along the same concept. No doubt it is a nasty drug. Yes it’s addictive but so are cigarettes. People who use either of these drugs know they are highly addictive. If I were to go up to you and inject you with a dose of heroin, you would be a victim but if you do it to your self, just like smoking a cigarette or eating to many fatty foods, there is no victim.
Making heroin legal would create a much safer drug in that the potency could be controlled and labeled for the end user so they would know exactly what they are getting to prevent over doses. This would also prevent drugs from being cut with who knows what. My Grandfather told me stories of times when Alcohol was made illegal and they would try and make moonshine themselves. Sometimes they would go blind for short periods of time when it was too potent.
Making heroin legal would create safer neighborhoods in that users would just go to drug store for their purchases instead of trying to get it on the street corner. This also keeps the gangs out of business who are trying to sell it on the black market and by removing it from the black market the price will drastically fall. When prices fall addicts no longer need to sell themselves for sex , Hold people up at gun point and commit burglary’s.
Lets face it. This drug is currently illegal yet the drug laws do not prevent anyone from getting their hands on it, they increase the damage done to the end user and they make the drug lords very wealthy.
Bile,
Have some faith. I’m a reasonably intelligent person, and I’m not going to ask you to define every last idea. Being dismissive of people who are interested in conversation is a good way to stagnate the growth of a group. Say I don’t choose to go read whatever you suggest. Then I don’t learn more about your movement and ideas. And I don’t join. I’m not saying I would join even if I read the background materials, but can you see how that attitude might be shooting yourself in the foot?
I think – and this is where I believe you will lose most people – that this claim
” It is no more legitimate for 1 million people to tell me how to live as it is for 10 or 1″
is just not waterproof.
If you lived in a society of 11 people, and 10 wanted to do something you didn’t, you could leave. I know this sounds antagonistic, but I’m just following my point through: If you really have a problem with how the majority of people in America, or New Hampshire, or Keene, choose for the government to be run, leave.
And isn’t the basic principle of “majority rules” how the free staters chose New Hampshire in the first place?
Amy, I suggest you go watch the 8 minute video, The Philosophy of Liberty at http://www.jonathangullible.com/media.htm. That will answer a lot of your questions.
If you lived in a society of 11 people, and 10 wanted to do something you didn’t, you could leave.
Or, better yet, they could go do whatever it is they want to do and “leave” me out of it. If whatever they want to do involves aggressing against my rights, then we have a problem because doing so would be immoral and unjust no matter how many of them there are that want to do it. Their rights end where mine begin and vice-versa.
I know this sounds antagonistic, but I’m just following my point through: If you really have a problem with how the majority of people in America, or New Hampshire, or Keene, choose for the government to be run, leave.
Where would you go, Amy? Antarctica? Even there, various governments claim control over the land (whether they use it or not) and the people who can be there.
No matter where you go on the entire planet, a government of some kind will aggress against you, some more than others. They’ve made laws to prevent people from just buying up their own island or a patch of land somewhere and calling it “Freedonia” and living out their lives in peace.
If you buy an island, the local government will still want a portion of what your people earn. They may charge you high tariffs etc. They may even insist you use their military services to keep pirates or other countries from raiding your island.
So, no, leaving is not going to change a thing because there is nowhere else to go. The only real option is to stay and “become the change we seek” in the world.
And isn’t the basic principle of “majority rules” how the free staters chose New Hampshire in the first place?
While a majority did indeed choose NH as “the Free State”, much of that was based on facts and figures. The biggest major difference being that those who didn’t like that pick had the choice to *not* move there and to withdraw our participation.
Thank you so much Zeus, for some reason as of right now my post on the sentinel article to Amy has yet to appear.
I really hope Amy (or someone else) answers the question about where I (and people like me) can go to be truly free.
I wasn’t being dismissive of your intelligence but the usefulness of this medium of communication. Often times it requires lots of background to build up to a particular point and comments on WordPress simply doesn’t work well.
What I would prefer is to sit down with you and be able to interact in real time.
As for leaving. That’s not freedom nor does it jive with property rights. If those 10 people out of 11 voted to take your home… that doesn’t make it legitimate. It wouldn’t be legitimate if it were 1M to 1 either. If you own the land you stand on in what way is it OK for others to tell you what to do with it? Do you believe that the US founding fathers should have left the colonies? Should Africans just left the locations in which they were enslaved? The african americans should have just left the states with racists laws? The south Africans just should have left the apartheid? The Scottish leave Scotland? What makes majority’s opinion moral, right, legitimate?
We were talking democracy. Not voluntary entered into agreements which happened to use majority voting techniques. It wasn’t majority rules in a governing sense. No one was/is forced to move to NH. In fact some did drop out after NH was chosen. Government majority rules is not consensual. It’s done under the threat of aggression or actual aggression.
Hi Amy,
I think your questions are both respectful and thoughtful, thanks!
You talk about drawing the line when there is a victim. What about the case of someone selling herion? As I understand your views right now, they should have the “right” to their “business” and the buyer should have the “right” to their choice.
But heroin is a far cry from marijuana, which btw I support legalizing. Heroin is not a victimless drug, it ruins lives. The addict is a victim, and so are the people they steal from to get money for it, and the family they destroy on the way.
Firstly, I want to clarify that I personally disagree with the use of either of these drugs. I’ve never used them, I don’t plan to, and I would advise anyone who asked me against it. I agree that heroin is far worse than marijuana. In my view, the fundamental question is this: Do you (and perhaps God, as I believe) own your own life and body, or do other people own it?
I do not believe your life or body is owned by other people, so I don’t think others have the right to manage your life or your body. That said, you also don’t have the right to harm others. So, a drug addict has no right to steal from someone else, nor act abusively, etc.
So, I’d say arrest the heroin user if he steals, or abuses someone — not for the use itself. If a wealthy recluse were able to use heroin without harming anyone else, I would have no right to say anything about it from a legal standpoint — even though I consider it immoral. This stance would also eliminate many of the damaging effects of the war on drugs, and focus on punishing real crime — harming others.
And I don’t see how the libertarian/Free Stater/whoever problem with zoning. I have the RIGHT to choose which zone I buy property in so I know what I’m getting into. I have the RIGHT not to buy property and build a home and a life, only to have someone move next to me and set up a strip cub, or a factory. Zoning is there to protect my rights. If you want to build a strip club or a factory, there are places for those. Because I live in a town with zoning, thank god, the place for them isn’t next to my home or school.
The question really is about property rights, I think. Say I own a big piece of land, and want to divy it up and sell it. I could “zone” it, so to speak. I could make any buyer sign a contract that they will not use it to construct a strip club, for example. You, as the buyer, might look for such a property for your home or school, because you could be certain that next year a strip club would not pop up next door.
The reason I disagree with many zoning laws, is that they are often made by people who don’t own the property in the first place. I don’t think I have a right to get my friends together and simply decide that the land you bought with your own money — perhaps with a different zoning, or no zoning at all — now suddenly (or when you sell it) can only be used for different purposes.
In short, although I definitely see that there can be practical advantages to zoning, I would want it to be done in the first way, by willing contract upon sale, rather than in the second way (forced upon you by others), which I think would be a violation of your property rights.
And for guns: “You” talk about freedom, with the general principal being, “Regulations and restrictions aren’t necessary. We are at heart decent people, intelligent people, and reasonable people. We can handle guns responsibly.”
I don’t see the connection between asking for that kind of freedom on the basis of people being so wonderful, and then the need to protect yourself because people are so bad and evil. Either people are good, or people are bad.
Well, it’s hard to say whether people are good or bad in general — that’s a big question. I do think there are far more people who just want to be safe from agression, than people who want to go around attacking others. Since the people who want to harm others will probably get their hands on a weapon anyway, or find other ways to harm people, I think it makes sense for the rest of people to be able to protect themselves. (Although I myself do not carry a gun)
On a more fundamental level, I think that the only reason I have a right to use force or violence against another person is in response to their force. If I were to put a person in jail for merely peacefully carrying a weapon, I think I would be the person initiating the force — I’d have thrown a man or woman in prison who had not harmed anyone else.
I come fron the standpoint that people are generally good, and that is why democracy *should* work. We *should* be intelligent and involved enough to elect the right people who will dedicate time everyday people don’t have to running the city. If they turn out not to be good, we will vote them out next time around.
The question is, what will these leaders do? I think democracy is fine, as long as we don’t imagine that the person we elect has the right to do things which would be immoral if we did them ourselves.
So, for example, if I am part of a chess club, which people join voluntarily, and pay dues to, I think electing a president who could perhaps choose how to spend the money on new equipment, etc, could make good sense. The problem comes if we start believing that our president has the right to do things we ourselves could never do as individuals — for example, to go demand money from the neighbors, who may not want to be part of the chess club, or to prohibit people from leaving the chess club.
I can temporarily delegate some of my choices to a leader, if I want to, but I cannot give them rights that I never had in the first place.
So, in summary, I would say that there’s nothing wrong with democracy — what is wrong is absuing the rights of one’s neighbor, or infringing on their rights to life, liberty and property. An individual may do this, by theft or slavery, for example, or an elected leader may do it, through taxation, or the draft. The words may change, but the act is the same. It’s fine if a bunch of people get together and elect a leader — they should just not imagine that that leader is exempt from moral laws which each of the individuals who elected them is constrained by.
I see your standpoint as contradictory to itself… “People are bad, we can’t trust them to be police or government officials. But I’m good, I deserve unlimited access to a gun, which I need because people are bad and want to hurt me and steal from me. “
The difference I see here, is in how the “gun” is used. If police or government officials only protect themselves, or the innocent, from agression, I have no problem with them, nor a problem with them being armed. I only have a problem with them if they use their power to agress against people who have not harmed others.
Similarly, I have no problem with a citizen carrying a gun, if they only use it to protect themselves, or the innocent, from agression. I do have a problem with them, however, if they use that gun to agress against a person who has not harmed others, and is not trying to do so.
I hope this helps, and I likewise hope that I was respectful and not negative. I look forward to your thoughts 
.
This threatening comment, and many others traceable to a single City of Keene IP address, came from an IP address ending in 67. The public library’s IP address for its public computers, as best I can tell, is the next address, which ends in 68. Still not sure which city bureaucracy 67 comes from, but someone was using it in the middle of the night (1:43 am) on at least one occasion, so I’d say it probably isn’t the public computers at the library. Unless of course they’re open 24 hours now. So, three guesses which city bureaucracy has people there 24 hours a day?
Good work Ian and Michael, If this evidence is true than you’ve exposed him or her as a city employee and as a lair. (and there is probably much more information in the server log files that a trained eye can look at. Might I suggest comparing tag data across sites?)
This may give weight to the idea that the more you guys make them act in the public eye like the barbaric thugs they actually are.. (and that is all these activists are doing) then the more mistakes they will make trying to cover their own asses. In those mistakes perhaps it will eventually be *them* serving a sentence in that shiny jail..
..and perhaps then they will finally see the evil they caused..
I come fron the standpoint that people are generally good, and that is why democracy *should* work.
The problem here is perhaps your understanding of what a democracy is compared to mine. I understand it as Benjamin Franklin understood it: “Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what’s for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”
Democracy is not what America was supposed to be (though 200 years of politicians and the media corrupting the words of the Founding Fathers would have you think otherwise). It was supposed to be a Democratic Republic. A pure Republic means “A Nation Ruled by Law”. A pure Democracy means “A Nation Ruled by Majority”. America was supposed to be a Republic with Democratic representation.
But even without that definition, Democracy (even solely for representation) does not fundamentally work on a moral level. It is often referred to derogatorily as “Rule by Mob” or a “Mobocracy”. This is because when the majority (a minimum of 51% of voters) wins, they get to not only decide the lives and fates of the minority (the other 49% of voters) but also the 100% of non-voters who want nothing to do with their system. So the end result is 51% electing a handful of people (the people they’ve elected) to manage their lives AND the lives of everyone else (51% + 49% + 100%) against their consent.
Many of us would prefer to manage our own lives so long as we aren’t harming anyone or damaging their property. If people can do that, government become less (or perhaps even completely) unnecessary.
That all said, I would not be morally opposed to that 51% forming some sort of contractual union or clique to voluntarily have their lives managed by a few — so long as they didn’t force others to join their group.
We *should* be intelligent and involved enough to elect the right people who will dedicate time everyday people don’t have to running the city. If they turn out not to be good, we will vote them out next time around.
If abdicating responsibility over various areas of one’s life is what you want, you don’t need government for that. You could hire someone to do that.
You will never elect “the right people”. It’s a fallacy. So long as the person chosen has the monopoly power to harm others through lawful coercion and force and to accept lawful bribes in the form of lobbying, corruption will reign and nothing will ever change.
Playing the “vote ‘em out, vote ‘em in” game is a unending cycle that accomplishes nothing. Government always gets bigger, more expensive and more intrusive no matter who you choose or what party they say they’re from.
I see your standpoint as contradictory to itself… “People are bad, we can’t trust them to be police or government officials. But I’m good, I deserve unlimited access to a gun, which I need because people are bad and want to hurt me and steal from me. ”
Your interpretation is incorrect. People are both good AND evil. It depends on their upbringing and life experiences which side they’ll lean more towards.
Giving a handful of people exclusive control over the lives of others through a monopoly on force and the ability to extract payment via the threat of violence, however, is doomed to fail and certain to corrupt. Many politicians get into politics to change the world and always find that it changes them, often for the worst.
It’s not a matter of believing people are good or bad. It’s about giving people the power and force to control others. It always invites corruption and evil deeds regardless of intentions.
This discussion has been enlightening.
I was not aware that these fools were walking around armed. That changes things.
It’s a collectivist statement Bile, collectivism is at the root of bigotry, racism, and other forms of “group hatred”. It’s an “us vs them” mentality, one where the person dehumanizes the opposing group in order to justify their hatred..
Sir, those “fools” (whomever it is your are talking about) are all different individual people who are not all anything. I’m not armed, but I support those that do arm themselves. I understand that a person has a natural right not granted by any king or government to defend themselves with a weapon if they so chose.
Oliver was broadly speaking but in this case it could be an acceptable statement. To be a FSP participant you need to have agreed to the SOI. If Oliver believes the SOI is a foolish thing than it’d be legitimate to claim all those who agreed are foolish.
In its original form though it was ad hominem and a rather pointless statement given there was no further explanation which is why I requested that Oliver share his enlightenment with the rest of us. What makes a FSP participant or “Keeniac” a fool and what is the issue with being armed?
When I pictured Stewie Griffin saying those words, it sounded both sinister and amusing at the same time.
“For every sprinkle I find, I shall kill you.” – Stewie Griffin
I’m not surprised in the least that the people who run this site investigate the IP addresses of posters with whom they disagree. The convenient thing about a “movement” is that you very easily come to believe that you are fighting a type of war, and once you come to that conclusion, you can easily justify all sorts of behavior. It’s us vs. them, and in such a perceived struggle, a bit of public domain surveillance is to be expected. Identifying people and then subjecting them to cyber-harassment is reasonable, considering the “threat”. Hypocritical? Of course. But remember: none of this is about values. It’s adolescent play-time
Question (and it IS a sincere one):
Can anyone list for me three things of significance (i.e. things that affect the lives of even a large MINORITY of the city’s people) the FSP has been able to change in the way the City of Keene carries out its perceived duties?
AnAmazedReader, if someone is attempting to make what could be considered a veiled threat, anonymously, and you have the means to see where that person was posting from… in what way is that illegitimate? In what way is it harassment to point out that it originated from an address known to be assigned to a Keene government machine? Most people posting provide some sort of identification. They are taking ownership for their words yet there are those who wish to lob ad hominem attacks and imply that they wish harm on others and do it anonymously. This is about values… and I find such an action cowardly. This isn’t about disagreements in and of themselves but the tone, content and presentation of the particular comments.
As for the significance and impact. I mentioned this before you you I believe but don’t recall a response. Do you think that at the beginning of a movement it is legitimate to question it’s outcome? Would you question MLK Jr. in ’55? Or Ghandi and the Indian independence movement in 1918? Or Thomas Paine and the abolitionist movement in 1780? Or the founders of the US how well there movement was going in 1777? Or after the Boston Tea Party? Or the woman’s suffrage movement in the late 1800′s and early 1900s? The intention is to move 20K people to NH within 5 years after 20K have agreed to the SOI. Currently 9K+ have signed and only 400ish? have moved into the state and those are all spread out. The rest were in NH already. NH was chosen only 4ish years ago. It takes 2 years to enter state government. There must be a start to any social change. To be critical when it hasn’t even officially started or even met 50% its goal is a distraction to the fundamental arguments at hand.
Even if the FSP fails that is not an argument against the ideas presented in it’s SOI. The argument here is liberty and whether voluntary interaction is a better way to organize a society.
I can’t wait to hear Dartmouth’s smarmy response, oh I bet it’s going to hit scrumpdillyumptious on the Smarm-O-Meter and just ooze with self-important peacockery…
So I will throw you a bone, Bonzo.
The FSP brought Free Talk Live, Free Minds Media, Anarchy in Your Head, The Ridley Report, Complete Liberty and more pro-liberty outlets to the Keene area and more are coming. Much more.
Free Talk Live has since more than doubled the number of stations carrying it, broadcasting the philosophy of liberty to millions of people six days a week with Free Minds Radio filling in the gap on Sundays and giving everyone a double-dose of liberty-flavored goodness on Fridays with Free Minds TV.
As far as how the City of Keene carries out it’s “duties”, I’d have to imagine the bad rep they’ve gotten from the viral videos and audio spreading across the internet have changed their behavior, if only in subtle ways.
The Couch Case showed the world an out of control, temperamental judge who continues to be at the heart of many of Keene’s problems.
The Ridley/Sam Case showed the world that this same judge writes his own laws and uses taxpayer dollars to enforce them. A man who forbids his activities from being monitored and who arrests innocent videographers from refusing to kowtow to his unlawful, unsigned judicial decrees.
Pro-liberty supporters recently exposed the statist views and illogical morality of a local council woman who believes stealing is fine so long as it is “The Law”.
One young activist exposed the absurdity of drug possession laws by holding a few grains of a harmless yet illegal plant.
Another showed how inefficient and wasteful the town council was when it comes to starting a farming co-op by attempting to start a garden for free and save the city $5000. For his troubles, he was briefly kidnapped.
Have any of these events changed how the City does it’s “perceived duties”? I’d have to imagine so as they seem awfully nervous and unsure what to do about all of this exposure. By increasing their hostility and violence, they only ensure more peaceful activists will move to Keene that much faster. And they’re already overwhelmed by the ones there now…
So maybe these accomplishments aren’t earth-shattering and maybe you’ll piss on our cotton candy with some smarmy response, but there’s one more thing you should keep in mind, Dartmouth:
If you don’t know what to do now with just a couple dozen of us, you’re really going to be S up the creek when there’s fifty or a hundred peaceful activists exposing your system for what it is, because man…
We’re just getting started.
Oliver
What you appear to be overlooking is that New Hampshire is an anomalous open-carry state, and there are residents of the state with no association to the FSP that openly carry a fire-arm every day.
I’m not sure if you were aware of this, but New Hampshire is not the only state in the union with such laws. See here: US Carry Map
Do you consider residents of the states in the map fools too? Or was your comment directed solely to the participants of the FSP?
The city’s IT department most definitely has logs that can identify the workstation (internal IP address) and username (of person logged into the machine) involved with these threats. A records request could reveal the individual behind these comments. That is, if you’re really willing to waste time on these ignorant thugs.
Bile,
With all due respect, don’t you think the comparisons between the folks who populate this site and people like Martin Luther King, Thomas Paine and Gandhi (why not throw in Susan B. Anthony for good measure?) are a bit grandiose? History is replete with examples of political movements and figures that began on the fringes, remained there, and then faded into obscurity. From a statistical vantage-point alone, it’s more likely than not that the FSP will be, historically-speaking, an irrelevant blip. I agree that there’s something to be said for fighting for what you believe in, but at a certain point, doesn’t a political movement have to at least show some accomplishments beyond its own sphere (the self-referential, violent rantings of a “Zeus” only buttress the point) to have some credibility? King, Paine, Gandhi et al accrued all sorts of victories, small, medium and large, along the pathway to their greatest triumphs. And they did that through the force of their intellect(s), moral authority and persuasive power. They were able to preach successfully to those beyond “the choir”, and thus make their movements broad-based. I’m sorry, but I see no such broad base being developed by the FSP, and I think that’s why the accomplishments have been lacking. Even within the confines of the movement itself, the results haven’t been impressive; 20K is the goal, yet since the goal was laid out eight years ago, only 701 people have moved to New Hampshire? Isn’t that indicative of a movement not quite catching on (frankly, I’m a bit surprised, as I would have thought that getting 20,000 people (in a country of 350 million people) with quasi-libertarian mindsets to move to a nice state like New Hampshire wouldn’t have been that hard; it is a bit strange).
But again, if you can list for me three things of significance (i.e. things that affect the lives of even a large MINORITY of the city’s people) the FSP has been able to change in the way the City of Keene carries out its perceived duties, I’d be happy to read about it. I think there is much that can be done to make government less oppressive and complicated; but I don’t see folks here actually doing the work that would achieve such results. I’m sorry; I really just think they’re mostly in love with the sounds of their own voices. It’s a missed opportunity, in my view. Thanks.
Ann
Ann,
It’s actually pretty difficult to convince even liberty lovers to move for more freedom. People are set in their ways and their comfort zones. They delude themselves into believing they can achieve liberty right where they are, if they just run another political candidate or whatever.
If they haven’t failed enough, they won’t try something more radical, like moving to NH. Fact is, most people aren’t activists, so they’ve never had the chance to fail at it in the first place.
Getting 20,000 ACTIVISTS to move is a difficult, but not insurmountable task. We are building the most visible, active group of liberty minded people in the world, and eventually anyone who considers themselves an activist for liberty won’t want to be anywhere else.
Of course, you could be right and we could fade away, but that would require freedom lovers to give up and return to their quiet lives of slavery. The ones I know have dedicated their lives to achieving liberty, and aren’t quitters. I intend to see our numbers continue to grow, and will do everything possible to see that happen. Eventually, the authoritarians will either come on board and shift their paradigm to allowing others to be free, or they will run away as they become heavily outnumbered by peacefully disobedient activists who will continue to expose the violence and oppression inherent in their system.
This movement is slowly gaining momentum, not fading away.
Ann, no I don’t think it’s grandiose. They were nobodies at one point. Christ was a nobody who left a huge impact on the world. Sure there are lots of social movements which faded into obscurity… you only know that after the fact. To gauge the success of a movement at the beginning is illogical. I’ll ask again… would you have asked the same questions to those listed above given their relative accomplishes at those particular time periods and given popular opinion at the time? Even 8 years into any of those movements what had those individuals or the founders of the movements accomplished?
Your numbers are incorrect. 8 years ago the idea was hatched. 4 years ago NH was chosen after 5K people signed up. The whole FreeKeene thing is 2.5 years old. The SOI says that they are to move AFTER 20k sign up. The 400 some early moves are just that. Early movers. The others already were in NH. To say that the it’s not quite catching on IMO would mean things are stagnant. They aren’t. (FSW has stagnated.) More early movers arrive all the time. Signups have been at least steady. The liberty movement in general has grown tremendously in the past couple years in no small part by the Bush (and now Obama) administration’s increased abuse and the campaign of Ron Paul. This Saturday hundreds of thousands of people across the nation will rally to end the federal reserve system. Exactly when in history has an economic issue such as that brought people together in such a way?
And if you think asking people to up and move to a new state is easy for any reason than you’ve got to reevaluate the average persons priorities. People have jobs and family and all kinds of obligations. Moving your life is hardly easy. Especially in the current economic conditions. They would like to move but can’t guarantee that it would happen. And since they don’t want to go back on their word they won’t bother signing up. In addition many people wish to reproduce what is going on locally. And your comment about 350 million people smacks of argumentum ad populum.
You are very narrowly looking at Keene rather than the movement as a whole. Both the FSP movement and the freedom movement in general. The FSP has become one of the major liberty movements in the world. The NHLA is there in NH providing a pro-liberty analysis of legislation and lobbying effort. They organize against things like the seatbelt law. There are a few FSP members in the House. Already there are more FSP members in the House per capita than the general public. Providing a different political viewpoint is valuable. Pointing out bad laws are valuable. Attempting to bring together different interest groups is valuable. Their effects are not obviously quantifiable. The more people that move the more obvious the impact. No matter what the movement… 1 activist is worth 1000 or more layman.
It seems to me that you would advocate anyone with any social idea to give up if a sea change doesn’t occur within a couple years. That’s generally not how things happen. It usually requires a Fabian strategy of sorts. The few in the front who make noise and those in the back which grind away over time. That’s how the socialist movement accomplished what they have in the USA. Read up on Fabianism, the history of the public education system, abolition, suffrage, etc. It was all incremental and they were all major minorities at the beginning.
If you’ve got more effective ways at making government less oppressive and complicated why don’t you share them rather than criticizing the existing methods only? What opportunities are being missed? Where are you in this movement? I have my criticisms of the Keeniacs but I’m not just sitting around but paving my own road. You are doing a lot more arm chair quarter backing about rather illogical topics than arguing the fundamentals.
To gauge the success of a movement at the beginning is illogical.
When has she demonstrated the slightest hint of logic? She hasn’t even demonstrated a basic, fundamental understanding of the liberty philosophy, only an ability to spew forth condescending and venomous critique that is reminiscent of Linda Blair in The Exorcist. Blaaaaaaaaaaaagh!
She needs to ignore logic, refrain from engaging in actual debate over the real issues and rely on utopian fallacies in order to complete her sinister agenda: to defame and demoralize activists while reinforcing her ego by attempting to appear intellectually superior to us “adolescents”.
Bile,
Again, please, even just ONE example of the movement bringing about a change in the way the Keene City government does business that has had a tangible, positive effect on the lives of even a large minority of Keene’s citizens.
The reason I keep driving this point home is that I think most people on this site are much more interested in gaining personal attention and enjoying a sense of community with other like-minded people. If the people here were serious, they’d be seeking to become truly involved in processes that do indeed have a real-world effect on people’s actual lives (whether that effect is achieved by dismantling government, expanding it, or something in between). Getting something done to improve the lives of Keene’s citizens would be the measure of success, as opposed to simply being noticed (and please, this idea that “the more attention we get, the larger our movement will become, and THEN we’ll be able to do something” is a self-serving cop-out, and an adolescent way of avoiding accountability; all of us are great within the context of some hope-fueled view of the essentially unknowable future). The difficulty is, once you start working in that realm, you tend to forfeit your spot in the peanut gallery and open yourself up to judgement and scrutiny.
Why not run for city council? Or for the School Board? Put yourself and your ideas to the test. I believe that people are inherently decent, and when they are presented with reasonable, whole ideas, most will respond positively. I don’t think that having an army of like-minded people present to overwhelm the political influence of others is necessary to make a difference.
Why not run for city council? Or for the School Board?
Yeah, Bile. Why don’t you just join the system like everyone else?
You know, that very same system that uses coercion and violence to achieve all of its ends? The one funded by theft? No, no, the unjust and immoral one that has one of our friends in a cage for filming and regularly throws other activists in cages (over couches, gardens and videotaping) when they refuse to obey it’s arbitrary demands? The one that ignores its own rules? Yes, THAT one!
Surely you’ll change the system from within because that’s worked oh-so-well in the past. And you can do it with taxpayer money!
She hasn’t even demonstrated a basic, fundamental understanding of the liberty philosophy
I rest my case.
AnAmazedReader: Question why is your answer always working in the system?
If you look at the venom on the sentinel article comments there seems to be a lot of people whom aren’t open/reasonable to the ideas of freedom/liberty.
It seems since nothing was changed before the FSP activists started trying to change things I would say many people are happy with the immoral government were forced to fund and deal with.
(Thank you again Zeus!)
I don’t think that having an army of like-minded people present to overwhelm the political influence of others is necessary to make a difference.
Really? Is that not what you call voting?
Comment by Zeus
April 22, 2009 @ 10:24 am
I can’t wait to hear Dartmouth’s smarmy response, oh I bet it’s going to hit scrumpdillyumptious on the Smarm-O-Meter and just ooze with self-important peacockery…
Dartmouth????
Dartmouth????
“Ann” was suspected of being some smug (male) jackball from Dartmouth before claiming the name of “Ann”.
1. Calling soming a copout is not an argument. 2. Its not a copout. Its the truth. Why don’t you look into the number of Keene residents over the past 4 years and see how many of them where related to the FSP. That number will be less than 40 I’d guess. Now how many people are there who are against what the FSP stands for? My guess its most of those in the Keene government and a reasonable number of the residents. So from any practical perspective… How is it that they could enact anything of scale? There are trash pickups. Some have volunteered at the community kitchen. The parking Robin Hood. Some work on a state level with the NHLA. There are plans as I understand for some to run in the next elections for local office. Some have started businesses. Some volunteer on local fire departments. As I have said before… Only very recently has any sizable amount of activists actually lived in the Keene area and many of them oppose working with or within the system which they morally oppose and instead perform civil disobedience. If you don’t find that effective fine… argue that. What has been accomplished in such a short time in a single town in not a valid measurement of the the general movement. One which has just started.
As for myself. I am not opposed to utilizing all nonviolent means to liberty and that includes running for and holding offices in government. I don’t live in Keene, or NH for that matter so I am unable to run for office there (I suspect.) I can’t run locally for school board because the laws don’t allow individuals without children in government school to run. I did not run for other local office in the last election because I was planning on moving shortly. However I am a director of the local LP and we run candidates when we can. I help organize outreach, OPH booths, rallies, maintain websites, etc. Just today I offered to do volunteer work for the city of Keene in order to save them money and was denied.
They are a part of the community. They are contributing. Their contributions and effects will continue to increase as their numbers increase.
And again. Would you answer my previous questions?
Please excuse the spelling mistakes… I was typing on a blackberry.
“I don’t live in Keene, or NH for that matter”
Go home you fuckin jerkoff
The question we’re all wondering now is whether or not you really believed posting that adolescent idiocy would get anyone to throw their beliefs out the window and say “You know what? That guy who swore at me has totally convinced me that being robbed and abused by the state ain’t so bad after all. I’m going home.”?
I think people in the greater KEENE area…who live in KEENE…or maybe grew up in KEENE…might question why someone who is not a resident of said town is speaking on its behalf…and may question how they can prevent this non resident from affecting the town they were essentialy raised in
great use of the edit option by the way!
it isnt even “your state” yet!
I think people in the greater KEENE area… may question how they can prevent this non resident from affecting the town
Simple. Stop aggressing against us.
It’s really not that hard. Just stop using violence, theft and coercion on peaceful people.
what?
“Stop aggressing against us”
YOU DONT LIVE HERE!
HAVE YOU EVER EVEN BEEN TO NEW HAMPSHIRE?
You don’t know if I live here or not. I’m not the guy you quoted earlier who said ““I don’t live in Keene, or NH for that matter”. That was someone else entirely.
well, do you?
Whether I’m in Keene now or moving to Keene later doesn’t change the fact that you’re using aggression and force against peaceful people. What exactly are you afraid we’re going to do to Keene that will affect it negatively? We only seek positive change.
Tell you what, we’ll take me out of the situation entirely and make it even easier for you to stop using violence, theft and coercion on peaceful people:
Start with my friend, Sam. I’ll bet if you can stop doing it to him, you could break the addiction entirely.
So your admitting to everyone here on this board, that you seem to frequent quite often, that you are not a resident of Keene and have probably never even visited OUR town.
“I’ll bet if you can stop doing it to him, you could break the addiction entirely”
I’m not doing anything to Sam. Sam has brought almost all of this upon himself.
He even admitted he intially had no answer to why he was fasting.
Comment by Zeus
April 22, 2009 @ 4:47 pm
Dartmouth????
“Ann” was suspected of being some smug (male) jackball from Dartmouth before claiming the name of “Ann”.
I’m a smug (male) jackball from Dartmouth (years ago). You got a problem with that?
BTW DC has had female students since 1972.
A few quick points:
I think it is creepy to be investigating the ip addresses of people who post on this site or any other site. Maybe I should refrain from posting from my office. There is a web site in my area that constantly checks the ips of posters. He made a big deal out of who my employer is.
As I said in another thread I think a quick comment has been blown way out of proportion. The responses here remind me of another site in my area where there are official enemies, these being the people who are involved in a particular town government. Really Nixonian (dating myself). If anybody posts the least dissent from the majority view, it is not accepted that it could be an ordinary citizen, it has to be one of the official enemies posing as an unaffiliated citizen.
Regarding comparisons with MLK etc., what strikes me as a distinction of your movement is that you don’t seem to distinguish between the judicial system and the other branches of government, whereas other movements, particularly the American civil rights movement, relied on the judicial system to make progress.
So your admitting to everyone here on this board, that you seem to frequent quite often, that you are not a resident of Keene and have probably never even visited OUR town.
This is what you call a “straw man argument”.
Here’s the definition:
A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position. To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
I admitted no such thing but you went ahead and pretended I did so you could use the answer you wanted to hear to take a swing at me.
It’s deceptive and disingenuous.
I’m not doing anything to Sam. Sam has brought almost all of this upon himself.
Sam exercised his rights to “Watch the Watchmen”. After all, if they’ve got nothing to hide, they shouldn’t be afraid of him using a camera in a public lobby, right?
Apparently they do because they told him there was an “order” not to use cameras in the lobby. And yet that “order” was not lawfully signed as the Law says it must in order to have any legitimate force.
So they broke the law, the one they swore an oath to uphold, because what? Because he was breaking the law? That’s absurd.
He even admitted he intially had no answer to why he was fasting.
Try living in an 8×8 cell with a turds floating around in a toilet you can’t flush because it’s stopped up, be deprived of sleep and questioned every 5 minutes by a bunch of angry authoritarians and see how clearly you’re thinking. And does not knowing why he chose to fast absolve his captors from denying him his rights, kidnapping him and putting him in a cage?
And you approve of this? That’s pretty sick.
yes or no…have you ever stepped foot in Keene?
“Try living in an 8—8 cell with a turds floating around in a toilet you cant flush because its stopped up, be deprived of sleep and questioned every 5 minutes by a bunch of angry authoritarians and see how clearly youre thinking. And does not knowing why he chose to fast absolve his captors from denying him his rights, kidnapping him and putting him in a cage?”
I’ve been booked for 24 hours in a New York City jail…step off with your nonsense about his enviroment!
I known for a fact that jail is comparably plush in terms of country wide conditions!
I’ve been booked for 24 hours in a New York City jail…step off with your nonsense about his enviroment!
I known for a fact that jail is comparably plush in terms of country wide conditions!
I’m not sure I follow. Are you saying that because it’s a nice cage, it’s okay to deprive him of his freedom?
my point is you are sensationalizing things…which will work against you
And please could you clear this up? Have you ever even been near NH?
I think it is creepy to be investigating the ip addresses of people who post on this site or any other site.
Really? When you say it’s creepy to be “investigating” the ip addresses you don’t *actually* know what information is presented to the admin, nor how it is displayed. From what I understand they caught this really quickly so perhaps they have IP name resolutions shown on the actual posts themselves. That’s not unreasonable and nor surprising.
How hard technically is it to do something like that? Pretty simple to setup with the right GeoIP libraries, click here to see it done. http://www.ip2location.com
“And does not knowing why he chose to fast absolve his captors from denying him his rights, kidnapping him and putting him in a cage?”
No, this makes him pointless
my point is many of you are constantly sensationalizing things…which will work against you
In what way have things been sensationalized? Which news reports?
And please could you clear this up? Have you ever even been near NH?
Yes, yes I have.
Now please answer my earlier question: What are you so afraid of that we’re going to do to Keene that negatively affects you?
No, this makes him pointless
You must also think Gandhi was pointless too when he fasted to protest the British invaders in his land.
your account of his experience in jail compared to his.
Please never step foot in NH
“What are you so afraid of that we’re going to do to Keene that negatively affects you?”
Waste our time
Please never step foot in NH
Too late for that. And sorry to say but many, many more activists are coming to NH, especially Keene.
Waste our time
Then stop aggressing against us and wasting ours.
Waste our time
Yeah? ..and how long have you been browsing this site again? heh.
I think he doesn’t even know.. I can’t see why it is people even care who Free Staters are or what they do. They aren’t hurting anyone. Just busybodies I guess..
JayDee, he doesn’t even seem to realize that many activists are native to New Hampshire if not Keene.
And he refuses to reveal what he’s so afraid of. If they’d just stop their violence, everything would be copacetic.
long enough to see that there is little hope for you.
with that being said…have a great life
JayDee, he doesn’t even seem to realize that many activists are native to New Hampshire if not Keene.
Hea, what do I know. I’m nowhere near there.. yet. 
hahaha
Comment by JayDee
April 22, 2009 @ 11:08 pm
I think it is creepy to be investigating the ip addresses of people who post on this site or any other site.
Really? When you say it’s creepy to be “investigating” the ip addresses you don’t *actually* know what information is presented to the admin, nor how it is displayed. From what I understand they caught this really quickly so perhaps they have IP name resolutions shown on the actual posts themselves. That’s not unreasonable and nor surprising.
How hard technically is it to do something like that? Pretty simple to setup with the right GeoIP libraries, click here to see it done. http://www.ip2location.com
I help administer a community web site. I’m quite aware of how much information on posters is available to admins with a single click. I clicked once and was shocked by the invasion of privacy (IMHO). Yes, I know it is public information. On our site the admins each have two logins, one that we use to post our own opinions with no more privileges than any other member, and one with all the powers that we use only when necessary. We don’t investigate people just because we don’t like what they are saying. In this case on FreeKeene.com, nobody was “threatened” by the comment, contrary to the title of this discussion.
I help administer a community web site. I’m quite aware of how much information on posters is available to admins with a single click. I clicked once and was shocked by the invasion of privacy (IMHO). Yes, I know it is public information. On our site the admins each have two logins, one that we use to post our own opinions with no more privileges than any other member, and one with all the powers that we use only when necessary. We don’t investigate people just because we don’t like what they are saying. In this case on FreeKeene.com, nobody was “threatened” by the comment, contrary to the title of this discussion.
Well I’m glad your up to speed with technology. I’m sure then you are well aware that it’s not an invasion of privacy. This site is someone’s private property and they have a right to know who is connecting to it, and the individual was not personally named. (as they may have more information than was disclosed.) Informing others that bureaucrats at the City of Keene are anonymously issuing threats to others is something I find interesting and news worthy.
If a message like this was posted physically on someones mailbox or a community bulletin board in a supermarket, and it was discovered that it was written on City of Keen stationary then it would be a similar case as this. They have a right to report it.
Also it is *you* not them who voluntarily started the connection.. if you don’t want your connection information logged by web servers on this site and others (because every web server logs connections) than it’s real simple. Don’t browse this or any site on the internet for that matter. IP’s are always logged.
They even tell you free and clear (just like every other reputable site does) what information they collect, it took me two seconds to find it. http://www.homelandstupidity.us/policies/
Allow me to clarify a few things. I have lived in New Hampshire for 22 of my 24 years. I have lived in Keene since May of 2008, and have been a student at Keene State College since August of that year. I am employed at a local restaurant and redistribute a fair amount of that income to other local businesses whose services and products I find appealing, and the bulk of the rest goes to rent which filters its way into the tax scheme of the city. That gives me a stake in this state AND the city of Keene. And I for one welcome and accept any new mover, even if I disagree with their particular brand of activism.
I choose to carry a firearm for my protection, and I feel it is justified given the mostly unsolved crimes in recent months. Since I have lived in Keene, I am aware of four stabbings, an arson, a girl in my Polisci class had a molotov cocktail thrown at her apartment door, eight drunk gangsters fought outside my home at 3 in the morning. Recently there was a shooting, and an unsolved rape.
There is nothing sensational about being thrown into a concrete cell (even a comparatively tolerable one) for exercising one of the most basic rights this nations founders were wise enough to acknowledge. Not “grant”, not “permit” but “recognize and respect.” The man has done no harm to any living person, but he is deprived of his freedom and treated like a murdering savage because someone might have had their likeness taken out of the flow of time. One would think that people in 2009 would not still be fearful of cameras capturing souls.
The posters here are correct: this thing is only getting started and I invite any interested party to attend the May 1st trials and see for yourselves the tyranny in effect. Or perhaps they will be more mindful of their behavior around “real citizens.” Nobody is moving here to invade and change your life. Anyone moving here is coming to join a community of people who will support them and not let them be forgotten if their activism gets them swept into a steel cage. Of course it is unwise to provoke an easily angered giant, but eventually that giant will be noticed for the destructive presence it is and likewise be banished or otherwise disposed of.
Josh
+1 Josh, from a Keene native who lived there for 18 years. !!!, is that good enough to allow me to stand for ideas I believe in, and can we discuss those ideas now, or do I need to dig up my grandparents’ birth certificates?
Hey I was wondering if someone could tell me why Sam and others, if I am mistaken, decided to videotape in the lobby. What kind of court was it? Were there non-government people being videotaped? I know if I was anywhere, including on public property, I wouldn’t want to be videotaped by anyone. So why tape in the lobby? I can definitely see wanting to tape the judge or a trial though. There’s nothing like fascist TV.
Hey I was wondering if someone could tell me why Sam and others, if I am mistaken, decided to videotape in the lobby.
A) That’s where the action was and B) the Gestapo wouldn’t let them film in the courtroom where another friend was being arraigned and C) because the bureaucrats often claim that there are two kinds of property: Public and Private.
We all know what Private Property is: Someone owns it. But what’s this “Public” Property thing they speak of?
Well, according to most bureaucrats, it’s property owned by *everyone* and therefore, *anyone* can use it.
The lobby used by Sam and the others was supposed to fall under this definition so they reasonably assumed they could film in the lobby since they weren’t allowed to in the courtroom (despite state law urging that it be allowed in all but the most extreme circumstances) — which is also supposed to be public!
But you know, it turns out that this definition is often bogus and this group calling itself “government” actually claims private ownership over that property. So long as you don’t get them too riled up by being excessively free and all, they might let you use it — so long as you follow a whole bunch of stipulations that they arbitrarily make up.
What kind of court was it?
It was a “District Court”.
Were there non-government people being videotaped?
I don’t know, maybe someone else can answer that. What I do know is that I’ve never known a liberty activist that would refuse a polite request from another peaceful human being not to film them though.
I know if I was anywhere, including on public property, I wouldn’t want to be videotaped by anyone.
And if I were filming and you told me that, I’d respect your wishes.
So why tape in the lobby? I can definitely see wanting to tape the judge or a trial though. There’s nothing like fascist TV.
I think it all starts with this definition of Public Property the bureaucrats like to bandy about. Apparently, it only means one thing when you obey them and means the complete opposite when you don’t.
The courtroom was supposed to be Public but they were prevented from filming there. So they were forced to stay in the lobby… and they were told the definition of Public had changed there as well and they had to leave.
Of course, this flip-flopping with definitions and whatnot didn’t sit well with Sam and when Lance, the Court Security Guy told him that the piece of paper on the wall was a lawful order banning cameras on the property (whichever kind it was, they seem to change their minds every 5 seconds), Sam called him on the fact that the document was not signed, a requirement for it to be considered a “lawful order”.
They didn’t much like him challenging their authority to they decided to capture him and put him in a cage to teach him a lesson.
And the rest is history.
I’d like to echo Zeus in that looking up IPs is a very common thing. All the logging software I use on my few sites provide IP, country of origin, referrer, search terms, reverse domain lookups and a link to do whois lookups and ip2location checks. Some sites, forums in many cases, display the posters IP in every post.
As for not living in Keene or NH. What’s the problem? The discussion with AnAmazedReader was regarding Keene FSP members and impact. And why was it assumed I’m a FSP participant? Have I been to Keene or NH? Sure. I was visiting just last weekend. Was looking at property in the area.
I’d like to point out that again we have a rather aggressive anonymous poster who is just attacking people rather than actually having an intellectual discussion. And the FSP participants are being called childish?
As for recording in the lobby… If you’ve ever been in a situation where you desire to record and are unsure as to what may happen moment to moment you start filming early and you don’t stop till it is an obvious lull in action or the event is over. Better to have too much footage than too little. Especially when it may be recording an illegitimate act.
I don’t live in NH either, I live in Michigan. That said, I support the assertions of individual rights made by inhabitants of Keene and NH at large. The existence of these rights is manifest, they are only not in force when aggressors are violating them.
So I don’t live in Keene or in NH, never have, so I have no interest in anything involved with you, right? Wrong. You know the big paint chip selection center at your local Home Depot store (in Keene)? Myself and my crew built that thing. Our lives touch each other in a myriad of ways with little regard to governmental lines in the sand. To ignore the opinions of those who might bring services to your economy remotely or pass through for a time and utilize the services your local economy offers is to be a bit short sighted, in my opinion.
If the Free State Project succeeds, it will be a victory for the preservation of the liberty of all individuals, even those of you who cling to the bosom of government so tightly. If it’s too scary, you also have the right to leave, or to set up a government of your own. What you don’t have the right to do is to force others to participate in it.
Thanks to all who participate here. Freedom lovers and dissenters both. Your arguments help me to clarify my own presentations of the ideas of liberty where I live. And yes, I disagree with the government supporters. But I have hope that they can be reformed.
Thanks
Andy in Michigan
When I wrote, “I happened to notice”, that’s what I meant. When I post a blog, the system sends me a copy of every comment that is posted to it via email. Right at the top of that email it has poster details like IP and hostname. I literally happened to notice one from the City of Keene.
I wasn’t spending any time digging around or hunting for IPs. Talk about paranoid!
Bile, you’re echoing JayDee, not I — although I would have agreed as well. But, credit where credit is due, it was JayDee and Curt who had the most recent posts discussing IP Addresses.
I recommend the Free Keene Forum for lengthy discussions:
http://forum.freekeene.com
Thank you for taking the time to reply Zeus.
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