VIDEO: Mixed Response to Copwatch – Appreciation and Anger

July 27, 2009 by Ian
Filed under: Copwatch, Issues, Police, Update, Video

Well, besides the usual antics (turning on the lightbar then driving, perhaps speeding, ahead so we’d follow, then turning off the lightbar, etc), the KPD was friendly as usual Saturday night. The police presence seemed heavy, but they claimed it was a normal Saturday night.

As before, some drunk white kids did not appreciate or like copwatchers. After watching their friend pepper sprayed and held to the ground, we approached an SUV with 3 people remaining inside. The girl in the back very much appreciated us, but the guy next to her got angry at us. Nick told him that we were there to make sure the cops didn’t hurt him. This combined with the soothing of the girl who liked us being there did calm him down. The girl in the front seat however, was not pleased at all (her boyfriend was the pepper sprayee). She was yelling at us, and particularly 280, who had the camera, to go away. The girl in the back seat tried to calm her down, while the guy was asking for a lighter. The girl in back also wanted a lighter, but the police would not allow 280 to approach.

After the girl up front refused to calm down, we left the scene to watch from a nearby parking lot. After the cops began to leave, we again approached the SUV. I apologized to the woman in front who was still hysterical and now began to threaten us. We managed to give a lighter and a WARNING flier to the girl in the back. Even though the guy had just been given a free lighter, the antics of the woman in front had whipped up his anger again and he stepped out of the vehicle and indicated he was ready to fight all four of us. By this time KPD was already back and intervening with him. We all decided it was time to go. Here’s the video:

This was another bummer for me. I understand that people are drunk and certainly upset at being pulled over and their friend pepper sprayed, but it amazes me how many choose to be angry at copwatch. Even though 280 told her early on that he wasn’t recording her but instead recording the cops, she remained violently angry at him, yelling about how he doesn’t have “permission” to record her. This is why, usually before I pull out a camera I will ask the person (during an uneventful stop) who is being victimized if they want me there to keep an eye on the cops. Usually, they say no and I’ll leave. Since when we arrived the guy was already on the ground being handcuffed, the cameras came out immediately and nothing anyone said could calm this woman down.

I think copwatchers should always deescalate the situation. If dealing with a carload or group of drunks and even one of them doesn’t want you there, it seems the right choice is to completely leave the scene. Your thoughts? Discuss on this forum thread.

On the good news side, we did encounter a car of black males in their 20s being pulled over. We got out and I approached after the trooper went back to his car and asked the driver if we could keep an eye on things. He said yes after looking surprised at first, and I gave him a WARNING! flier and suggested he say no to any searches. He seemed to appreciate that bit of unsolicited advice, and we stood and observed for the entire stop. Afterwards the driver waved at us when they pulled away, and we waved back. A much needed boost to a downer of a night.

I really felt like the black guys appreciated us. Just as we arrived, another cop pulled in behind the trooper to double the intimidation. Who knows what the police would have tried if we hadn’t arrived. I’m not saying all the cops around here are racist, but I bet you there are far more black guys in jail than there are as a percentage of Cheshire county’s population.

Finally, props to KPD for doing their job the right way and intervening in a tense situation with angry drunks. If real protection were your full time job instead of having the additional responsibilities of collecting revenue and arresting peaceful people, I’d happily support you.

A TALKING COW PIG

I don't think that's an axiom of libertarianism. I consider myself a libertarian but I don't think people have natural rights. Natural rights are as real as the social contract. It's all made up, by philosophers.
Zecharo

So rights are basically fictions. How do you decide which rights are best?
Lpviper

In a way, this is new ground that is being trod in the interactions between government employees and their supposed employers.

Personally, I would welcome any video footage that could be obtained for me, by anyone, in any encounter I found myself in with the armed tax feeders.

I also understand 'Angry's wishes to not be recorded.

I am far from being in a position to teach anyone here anything, but here is my view.

If you don't believe in the (flawed) concept of 'public' property, then acting like it means something when you want to shoot a video is disingenuous, no matter what you stated OR actual intent might be.

I believe that everyone involved in this incident has learned a valuable lesson here, and I hope they retain it.

Just like the man who wants to take his own life or allow himself to be eaten, there are some people you just can't help, and some others who simply don't want your help, no matter how benificent your assistance might turn out to be in the long run.

'Angry' made her choice and it would seem her wishes were disrespected by the very people who should understand better than anyone what the implications of real free choice are.

I'm glad Ian and Nick apologized to her, and I hope this incident will not soon be forgotten.

Even if the result is harmful, free choice must win out over any percieved protection or service.

The 'for your own good' stuff doesn't fly when the tax feeders do it, and the nobility of one's cause is never justification to behave like a tyrant.

To do so, and think it is the right thing to do, is a very dangerous place to be philosophically and could damage the reputations of others who are doing the same things peacefully and consensually.

I agree with the goal of this service, but the execution here was poor.

With all that said, basically this whole movement is new, with many people new to the ideas of liberty and still struggling to overcome their indoctrinations. The anger of 'Angry' should stand as a beacon to all of us to remind us that as individualists, we can't just be running around helping people who don't want help.

Kinda reminds me of the people forced to evacuate hurricane zones…

Thanks
Lpviper

Oh, and Patrick, it's natural to wonder why, but why doesn't matter. If somebody (not being paid by me to provide a 'service') doesn't want to be recorded by me, I don't record. If 'Angry' wants to share her reasons here, that is her choice, just as it is if she does not.

I don't think the question is necessarily disrespectful, but it is a bit nosy…

BTW the cops refusal to allow free people to have a cigarette lighter in their own car was childish and stupid, but I can't call it a justification to continue recording someone who emphatically asserted that she did not wish to be recorded.

People aren't going to believe you when you tell then you respect their individuality, if they have that sort of thing for an example.

Tread carefully…
AnAmazedReader

This line uttered by the videographer (way too generous a designation in this case, but what the heck) was an absolute classic, from the standpoint of massive egocentricity rendering a person moronic:

"I'm not filming her".

The greatest resource the often somewhat paranoid opponents of the FreeKeene "movement" have is the FreeKeeners themselves. It's the "gift that keeps on giving".
Don't Lose Sigh

I ask yet again, shouldn't this have been about the arrest and nothing else? I thought you're group was all about people being arrested and mistreated/overpowered? Those in the vehicle were not under arrest and had nothing to do with being stopped, so I don't blame them for not wanting to be recorded. Perhaps they don't want their family to see or their school or their employer. Perhaps the person being arrested doesn't want to be film either.

In the meantime while all the discussion is on whether to tape someone that doesn't want to be, that young man was mistreated after putting his hands behind his back for arrest and being thrown to the ground, handcuffed, punched in the face, THEN sprayed. Too bad no discussion has been taking place about that. However, if you saw it, please email me.
http://pshields.net Patrick Shields

@LPViper: Good point. I was trying to determine her reasons, but it's not important.
http://webryders.net nick

Don't Lose Sight,

I'm not sure what relation you have to the incident, but it appears you were either a witness, or have talked directly to witnesses. I regret that we were not there for the initial stop and arrest to capture it all. That's probably the reason nobody is talking about it unfortunately, but if he was hurt by police, it deserves talking about.

As for the people in the vehicle, they were under arrest, because they claim they were not allowed to leave their vehicle. They were being detained and pryed for information.
"ANGRY WOMAN IN

Good afternoon to all.

It's a wonder that their are still people arguing about this. I never once asked for the video to be taken down. I just asked for my name to be taken off of it for fear of an employer coming across that. It wouldn't have been hard to identify me considering my car, my friends, and my name was all on that video, and if I hadn't been asking, and then screaming for them to stop filming- I'm sure my face too. I wasn't getting arrested or in trouble, there was no need to show me on tape. Plain and simple.

Free Keene is there to help people getting arrested or harassed by the police. I was not. The police in Keene have actually always been very kind and always been fair with me.

With that being said, It is true that they haven't been so fair with my friend. Before you guys got there, two police unlocked the passenger side door, through the already open window. They then opened the door and asked him to get out. He got out, put his hands behind his back and they threw him on the ground face forward and continued to use excessive force, all the while he was yelling that he wasn't resisting and asking them why they were doing those things to him which from my account was being pepper sprayed and having 2-3 cops sitting on him/ using unnecessary force. (You can watch the end of his arrest on the video) I later heard and from the victims own words that he "felt beat up" the next day.

Free Keene did exactly what they wanted to, and that was to catch the police being un professional.

Kudos to them.

I also want to THANK them again for respecting my wishes, and taking my name off it, despite all the assholes who have been telling them to "screw her".

What purpose does it serve to keep my name in the video? Everything else is still there.
http://freetalklive.com/ Ian

ANGRY,

Welcome to the comments section of the blog. Bickering seems to be the point of them, generally. Don't pay the hecklers any attention. They are just random internet people.

I'm glad the people who matter in this case, you and the copwatchers, were able to use this blog to come to a mutual understanding and appreciation!

Welcome to the Free Keene blog, ANGRY.

Question: Did the cops recognize your friend or did he provide ID?
"ANGRY WOMAN IN

Neither. He gave his name.
http://freetalklive.com/ Ian

Not legal advice, but my understanding of their rules:

For future reference, passengers don't need to speak to the police. Drivers need only provide license and registration. Remember to ask questions instead of answering them. Or, don't say anything at all if you aren't comfortable asking questions like, "Am I free to go?".

The more you tell a cop, the more likely you are to get arrested for something.

For more, look for the Antiterrorist on YouTube, and good luck out there!
charley hardman

I don’t think that’s an axiom of libertarianism.

shaking head and grimacing.

I consider myself a libertarian but I don’t think people have natural rights. Natural rights are as real as the social contract. It’s all made up, by philosophers.

bringing up yet another stumbling block for the easily confused. there needn't be a single crumb of evidence for natural rights. they are not a logically provable factor. sheen aside, natural rights is simply the least assailable doctrine, by far — the most pristine foundation of vapor. a philosophy by default.

for if one disputes (not merely professes ignorance of) natural rights — that all humans are created equal with regard to rights — he therefore asserts that one human has more rights than another. (in other words, you are not a libertarian if you dispute the axiom.) this assertion goes beyond the unprovability of natural rights, as follows:

natural rights
- are humans created equal with regard to rights?
yes.

social "contract" (ha!) or other disputation of natural rights
- are humans created equal with regard to rights?
no.
- which humans are superior, and why?

any theory other than natural rights requires the answering of "which humans". the doctrine of natural rights suffers least from such arbitrary foundation, for the question cannot even exist when all humans are in the same rights class. no selection.

such analysis is impossible for the average lunkhead, but there's hope; the analysis is usually unnecessary. forget attempting to prove the unprovable, and instead ask those interested whether they believe "all humans are created equal with regard to rights". voluntarism is required logically if they assent to that premise. getting people to understand rights and downstream logic is the barrier, especially when their bread and butter depends upon scoundrelly behavior, but debating natural rights is usually a waste given that most accept the premise. it's always a waste to pretend that natural rights may or must be proved.

Don’t pay the hecklers any attention. They are just random internet people.

one for the archives.
Andrew

Angry Woman,

I was the person with the video camera. I apologize for not responding until now, but I've been away at work for 3 days.

First let me apologize for not being able to deescalate the situation, and offer my condolences to your friend who was arrested.

I'm glad that you took the effort to come to FK and share your thoughts. In my defense, I did not get the opportunity to ask any of you if it was ok if I filmed before the situation escalated. It was nearly impossible to get a word out. I understand that you were in an agitated state, and that's why I'm not offended at all by you yelling at me. I only approached the vehicle after I had heard the girl in back say that it was ok to record, and when you asked me to stop filming, I had also heard your friend tell me to stay, so I stopped filming you and only you. There were a lot of people yelling/talking to me at once and I was trying to wait for a consensus from you and the other passengers, but the cop distracted me from my goal. I was only there trying to help, and I'm sorry I failed.

I don't feel that I did anything wrong. According to the law, I was in the right. I couldn't care less what the law says about recording on so called "public property," but I do care about what is morally right. That is why I stopped filming you when you asked, but it is also why I kept filming the cop and your friends when they asked me to stay.

I don't have a lot of time to constantly check this comment section, but I will respond again to you if you would like me to.

Thanks
*NOT* "brad&quo

Thanks for sticking with us. I can see why you'd want your name taken off the video. I'm glad that it was. Sorry for what happened w/the COPS. Remember, KPD means: "When the Kings Puppy Dogs get a 911 call, they get hot, they become the Kids' Play Dolls!……..After we taze a few keene pigs, they'll settle down, or transfer to Swanzey…..Q: What does Swanzey Police Dept. have, that KPD doesn't??? A: A "one clip/one kill" policy….KPD just sprays bullets like a fire hose…Remember Carl Patten @ Beaver Street Market a few years ago???…I think he hit like 8 different houses with stray shots…never even hit the guy he was shooting at…maybe the couch enforcer died, or moved away? "The Keene Police, in the *eternal* PURSUIT of JUSTICE!" DAMN! Justice can run like a mutha fucka!/…. PS: Do you prefer "AWIFS", or "AWiFS"???…most of us, the ones who count, anyway, like you either way!…*grin*…
"ANGRY WOMAN IN

Hahahaha Why thank you very much, "*NOT* Brad". Doesn't matter much to me.

To Andrew,

It's cool. I understand the reason why you guys do what you do. I just hope you guys don't loose sight on why you're doing it.
*NOT* "Brad&quo

*NOT* "Brad" doesn't matter much to me, either. I liked your comment on the "topless breasts" posts…it made me laugh out loud!
Freedom_Spryte

Some suggestions for possibly avoiding situations like this in the future:

I know that an informational flyer of some type that could be given to those who have been stopped was being considered. Perhaps included something saying that any video tape that is taken will not be posted/used AT ALL *unless* police misconduct happens. Also, perhaps consider destroying video tape after a certain amount of time if it does not contain police misconduct – which would avoid any issue of having the police attempt to use the video against whoever had been stopped.

Simply stop if the people who are involved don't want to be taped. If something happens, you can't say that you didn't offer them protection, hindsight is often 20/20. The next time it happens, they won't be so quick to tell you to go away and chances are, they will be saying things to their friends like, "Wow, I wish I hadn't told them to go away."

Getting the word out in Keene about CopWatch would seem like the most straightforward way of informing the public about what you're attempting to do. If I'm not mistaken, Keene is a pretty small town, yes?

*Door to door flyering

*Flyers up at coffee shops, laundry mats

*Hand out flyers outside of movie theaters/sports games/malls/concerts – etc.

*Take up a donation for a small ad in whatever free publication you have there that advertises local events, restaurants and whatnot
charley hardman

Simply stop if the people who are involved don’t want to be taped. If something happens, you can’t say that you didn’t offer them protection, hindsight is often 20/20. The next time it happens, they won’t be so quick to tell you to go away and chances are, they will be saying things to their friends like, “Wow, I wish I hadn’t told them to go away.”

all that nonsense is based on the false premise that the taping is solely for the protection of direct victims of an incident.