NH Activist and Free Keene Supporter Makes National Waves
Today, William Kostric went to Portsmouth, New Hampshire to protest at President Obama’s Town Hall style meeting regarding healthcare. Soon though, he was spotted on private property nearby the meeting with a legally carried handgun. National news began reporting on the “Man with a Gun” near Obama’s appearance.
Within hours, William was given an appearance on MSNBC’s Hardball:
While William is not a Free Keene blogger, he is often spotted at local activism events and Social Sundays meetups
Comments
82 Comments on NH Activist and Free Keene Supporter Makes National Waves
He’s wearing a porcupine shirt ;D
Wow. That Matthews is quite the SOB, isn’t he? Maybe that’s why I’ve never seen his show.
Major ROFLage at MSNBC. My sides still hurt.
Major kudos to William tho it really hurt when he forgot to mention voluntary *society*. Opportunity lost. Oh well.
Anon, they cut off the shirt tho.
I think it’s good that he asked the birther question tho. It saved William from being totally written off by the audience.
I didn’t realize that the “birther,” phrase is so common. It just sounds stupid to say. And here it is on MSNBC
anyone here know someone or know of someone who was hurt or killed due to gun accident?
No, but I knew a guy who was stabbed to death because he wasn’t armed. Why do you ask?
I don’t know who is more contemptible …the anchor and/or the disgusting excuse for a reporter or Chris Matthews? My god…what a bunch of sanctimonious jerks. If you agree with these pricks stay put…if not come join us in the “Live free or Die” state and help us keep the tree watered! ( in a peaceful way of course). Come and hang out with people like William who values liberty and is fighting hard to retain it. Thank you William … you make me proud to know you!….
Hey loaded kook 2:
I personally don’t know of anyone that has been involved in an accident. Although I know that it happens. But I do know that it pales in comparison to the millions and millions of people who are slaughtered by governments all around the world.
edit
COMMENT BY LOADED KOOK 2
August 11, 2009 @ 8:04 pm
“anyone here know someone or know of someone who was hurt or killed due to gun accident?”
Just the tip of a Google-search iceberg:
MILLTOWN, Ind., April 22 (UPI) — Police say a 2-year-old girl in Milltown, Ind., fatally shot herself with a gun owned by her stepfather, who serves as a reserve police officer.
State police officer Sgt. Chad Dick said Alexis Camp accidentally shot herself in the head after finding reserve Crawford County Sheriff’s Department officer Jared Conrad’s firearm, the Louisville (Ky.) Courier-Journal said Wednesday.
Dick said it appeared the young girl found and accidentally discharged the gun Monday in a bedroom shared by Conrad and his wife, Jessica.
UPDATE: Teen killed in Bakersfield gun accident
KGET-TV
updated 9:47 p.m. ET, Fri., July 24, 2009
A teenager accidently shot himself to death Friday while handling a gun in his southwest Bakersfield home, police said. The victim was James Christian Peterson, 15, according to the coroner’s office. The gun was locked when the boy found it, police said, but he ”retrieved a key to the secured handgun without his parent’s knowledge and inadvertently discharged the gun,” Detective Fred Calvillo said in a statement. ”The round struck the 15-year-old in the head.” ”There are no signs of foul play or any apparent criminal conduct,” he said. Other children in the house may have witnessed the accident, police at the scene said.
Boy Shot In Gun Accident
Now In Fair Condition
Reported by: 9News
Web produced by: Neil Relyea
Photographed by: 9News
12/8/2004 10:35:31 PM
The 11-year-old boy who was shot while playing with a rifle last week has been upgraded to fair condition. Police say Timothy Cooper and three friends broke into a neighbor’s home in Latonia Lakes and found the rifle. Police say while they were looking at it the gun went off. The bullet went into Timothy’s back and exited through his chest.
Officials think gun-cleaning accident caused Grimsley’s death
Comment Email Print Share
ESPN.com news services
HOUSTON — Former Houston Oilers linebacker John Grimsley was found fatally shot in his suburban Houston home Wednesday, the apparent victim of a gun cleaning accident, an official said.
Fort Bend County Justice of the Peace Joel Clouser said that when Grimsley’s wife, who was out of town, was not able to reach her husband Wednesday, she had a neighbor check on him. The neighbor found Grimsley’s body on the floor in the dining area.
“It appears it may have been an accident,” Clouser said. “He was in the process of cleaning his gun. It appears that he had his dinette table covered with newspapers and he had the tools out to clean the gun with.”
SPOKANE
Girl wounded in gun accident
Police say boyfriend pulled trigger, thinking gun unloaded
Thomas Clouse
Staff writer
A 13-year-old girl remains in serious condition after her boyfriend shot her in the head Sunday night with a gun he apparently thought was unloaded, police said.
Spokane Police arrested 20-year-old Reza Abghari Monday morning and charged him with second-degree assault and unlawful possession of a firearm, police spokesman Dick Cottam said.
The girl was transferred from Spokane to a hospital on the west side of the state. She was reported in critical condition on Monday evening, Cottam said.
The incident started Sunday when Abghari hosted a party for the girl, who was his girlfriend, and two 14-year-old boys. They were drinking and playing video games, Sgt. Joe Peterson said.
One of the 14-year-old boys brought his father’s .22-caliber pistol to the party. Abghari took the gun and ejected live cartridges, but one remained in the chamber, Peterson said.
“They had been watching TV and were acting like gangsters,” Peterson said.
Abghari pointed the pistol at one of the 14-year-old boys, who became angry. “Then he pointed it at the girl and he obviously pulled the trigger,” Peterson said. “Then they made up a phony story about a drive-by shooting.”
The 911 call came in at 11:23 p.m., Cottam said. When investigators arrived, the boys and Abghari told police that the girl was shot by someone else.
“They got their stories straight pretty quickly,” Peterson said. “It took detectives quite a bit of time to hammer it out of them.”
Eventually, detectives learned that one of the 14-year-old boys took the gun back to his house. They obtained a search warrant, but his parents consented to a search, Peterson said. Detectives found and retrieved the gun.
Carla Webb injured in gun accident
Tuesday, September 18, 2007
By Brian Mosely
The Bell Buckle mayor’s wife, Carla Webb, is recovering at home this morning following an accidental shooting in her home Monday night.
According to Mayor Dennis Webb, his wife was showing a pistol that was for sale to friends who were visiting the Webb home when she dropped it.
The mayor stated that before the firearm hit the floor, it was caught by Billy Philips and the gun discharged, striking his wife in the calf.
“She’s doing fine,” the mayor said. “It was a stupid accident. Carla feels bad about it. She knows not to hand a loaded gun to someone. It could have been very serious.”
The mayor was out of town when the incident occurred and heard about it upon arrival at the Nashville Airport.
Webb added that Phillips “feels terrible” about the accident as well.
Augusta Teen Dies in Gun-Cleaning Accident
Posted: May 26, 2009 4:13 PM
Updated: Jun 09, 2009 3:01 AM
Investigators say a gun-cleaning accident killed a teenage boy in Augusta County Monday afternoon. It happened in the basement of a home near Mount Solon in the 200 block of Freemason Run Road.
The Augusta County sheriff says 16-year-old Andrew Simmons was apparently cleaning his hunting rifle, when it fired and a bullet struck him in the chest.
Criminal Charges in Death of Boy Who Shot Himself at Gun Show
Police Chief, Gun Club Indicted on Involuntary Manslaughter Charges
By SARAH NETTER
Dec. 4, 2008
A police chief and a Massachusetts gun club have been indicted for involuntary manslaughter in the death of an 8-year-old boy who accidentally shot himself with a Uzi at an October gun expo in Massachusetts.
Pelham Police Chief Edward Fleury owns COP Firearms & Training, which sponsored the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman’s Club, where 8-year-old Christopher Bizilj accidentally shot himself in the head in October after losing control of the 9 mm Micro Uzi submachine gun.
In addition to the manslaughter indictments, Fleury and the Westfield Sportsman’s Club were also indicted on four counts each of furnishing a gun to a minor.
Two other men, Carl Guiffre of Hartford, Conn., and Domenico Spano, of New Milford, Conn., also face involuntary manslaughter charges. Messages left at the listed phone numbers of both men were not returned Thursday afternoon, and their involvement in the youngster’s death was unclear.
Christopher’s father, Dr. Charles Bizilj of Ashford, Conn., and a firearms instructor were standing nearby when Christopher accidently shot and killed himself.
———————————————————————
Sure, this whole thing about guns being dangerous is just a fascist myth promoted by “statist” media thugs. And Santa Claus exists.
LK2
If you are looking for names: ‘Schindler’s List’ has the names of a bunch of people a government decided not to kill. They made a movie out of it.
@LOADEDKOOK2
His name was Terry and he was murdered in Chicago. He was my best friend’s uncle. He left behind two brothers, a sister, a father, a mother, a wife and a baby daughter who never got to know him.
Had he and his brother been armed, both would have survived instead of just one.
@ANN
No one said guns aren’t dangerous. So are vehicles, which is why you get training before driving around in one. Even in your example, you cite two incidents involving state enforcers who weren’t responsible with their weapons and it cost people their lives. Any responsible gun owner knows to make sure the weapon is unloaded before cleaning, how to do that safely, and to never point a weapon at something you don’t intend to shoot at. Carelessness costs lives, and that goes for anything, not just guns.
Pro-liberty activists promote self-responsibility and respecting the rights of others, whereas people like yourself blame inanimate objects and trade the liberty of others in a futile, obsessive attempt to attain invulnerability from the dangers of just being alive.
Guns are dangerous weapons, no doubt about it. Making it illegal to carry one, however, not only violates the 2nd Amendment (and everyone’s right to defend themselves from harm regardless) but it also empowers criminals (who don’t care about your laws in the first place) to perpetrate violence on an unarmed populace. Statistics prove time and again that a well-armed populace is a safer populace overall.
Relying on others for your defense, particularly when they have zero accountability, zero obligation and little incentive, can be — and often is — a fatal mistake.
As the saying goes: “When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.”
Most of the time, the cops end up being a clean-up crew, drawing a chalk-mark around your body. Other times, they’re the perpetrators (as in the California BART incident where a cop executed a young black man, already on the ground with a knee on his neck, with a single gunshot to the back or the 250lb off-duty cop in Chicago who beat the living hell out of 125lb female bartender).
Your argument is just another attempt at misdirection and obfuscation, Ann.
Ann,
Should we list the names of each person that was killed by government: Hitler (6 million), Mao (20 million), Pol Pot (1.4 million), Stalin (20 million(, Clinton, Bush, Obama, etc.
Civilian death tolls in Afghanistan have jumped 24% since Obama has taken office:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07/31/afghanistan.civilian.deaths/
So, Obama is willing to kill children and consider it collateral damage.
Violent people don’t have the right to tell people that are afraid of their violence that they can’t own guns.
I wish we could convince your government to give up their guns, so that these people that are afraid of the government’s guns don’t have anything to worry about anymore.
It blows my mind (still!) that people can’t make the simple mental leap from exercising a right and ohhhooohhh scary evil guns (that seem to just go off by themselves). WTF is wrong with people? I just don’t get it. In the country, folks get it. You learn about weapons at an early age. You learn safety, you learn shooting skills. Shit, my dad grew up in San Francisco and brought his .22 to school on the bus…for shooting at the school range! We’ve fallen a loooong way. I better get real and get my sorry ass to NH asap! Anyone know of a job for a killer decorative plumbing salesman 
?
Wow Matthews really ripped into this guy. Its our constitutional right to bear arms. Who cares what kind of event it is. Its our right!! This country is going to hell. Its funny that he accuses him of being a birther at the beginning. Every citizen in this country needs to start standing up for their rights and not be scared to do so….If that doesnt happen, we will lose most of our rights. People need to open there eyes quickly before its too late. No2Tyranny, No2NWO, No2Fascism, No2Socialism!!!
THIS IS BAD ASS! LMAO
And that jackalope Matthews spent almost a minute trying to get Kostric to say he was a “birther”.
“Wow. Who would be silly enough to carry an unloaded firearm?” – William Kostric
Many of these “uncomfortable” people are projecting their own feelings of what they feel like doing on to others. Those are the folks you should really feel uncomfortable around.
william kostric did a damned good job under what must’ve been crazy pressure in an alien setting. honesty prevails. lesson there, though that jefferson quote is a POS ripe for tossing the minute he wrote it.
AnAmazedReader, good advice for you from ricky roma:
you wanna learn the first rule? you’d know if you ever spent a day in your life; you never open your mouth till you know what the shot is. you fucking child.
Those media folks clearly have no respect for freedom or the New Hampshire advantage. Wake up folks.
NH has just about the best self-defense laws in the nation. NH has the second lowest rate of cops in the nation. NH is the safest state in the nation. These things are connected!
I love how MSNBC doesn’t know the laws of NH. I know they have Google. I wish William would of pointed out that guns are all around Obama all the time. Secret Service, Home land Security, Cops ext…. and some how none of those “GODDAMN GUNS” just start shooting. If you are part of government your guns know right from wrong, but if you are just 1 man exercising he rights his gun is a crazy hair trigger killing machine. No respect for the law no respect for individual freedom and if you do something they disapprove of you must be a “Birther”. William is a man with balls big than his gun. Thank you William.
Good job Will.
To think that that giant douche show passes for “news” in this country. It makes me so angry.
I also notice the tag under Will there that reads “Rage at Home”. Not suggesting anything there are they!
Great Job William!!!
Everyone who reported on the subject failed to mention or question the armed law enforcement present. The police department in my hometown have had two firearms accidents in the last few months. One injured a bystander, the other injured a police recruit. Any time anyone mishandles a firearm it becomes a dangerous situation. Police aren’t immunized from mistakes by their badge.
Also, no one has mentioned all of the people in the crowd that may be concealing and carrying with permit. William exercised his rights openly, and that’s what “they” have a problem with
And now for your viewing pleasure, Penn & Teller’s Bullsh!t: Gun Control
Gun! Gun! OMG, a man with a gun! Wait, that’s my friend! And the event went off peacefully with a big plug for the NH freedom movement! Brilliant Activism, Priceless, great job William!
I think O’Reilly or Hannity and Colmes will be hunting, err, wanting you next!
(we might have to look into getting a shirt that has the “plug” round the front collar so they can’t chop it!)
I watched the Ridley interview first, and William was so modest about the Hardball interview that I wasn’t expecting much. After watching the Hardball interview, I couldn’t be more impressed with how he handled himself. Great job William, every bit of coverage helps.
I just wanted to say that Mr. Kostric handled himself very impressively in that interview and he sets a fine example. Despite every attempt by Matthews to paint him as some kind of nut, he kept cool and came off as a serious, sincere, and normal guy who values liberty. Great job!
Of course, now that the kudos have been dispensed with – and not to diminish them in any way – the poster was an enormous tactical blunder.
The message is non-aggression. The combo of gun + call to revolution looks like aggression to the uninformed.
Fail.
George,
Why don’t you show us the correct way to do it with the correct type of sign the next time Obama comes to town.
I did not see you on hardball yesterday George. Obama was in town and you had a chance to do it the “right way,” but you did not.
Fail.
Kudos for the way you conducted yourself, William Kostric. Through the entire event and with the interviews. You momentarily stopped the media from pushing its agenda which is a miracle in itself.
Where was jesse btw? I thought he’d be there with a gun also… 
Cracker and LibertyTiger make the important point that the vast majority of weapons at Presidential events are in the hands of state agents. Their guns are intended to be, and often are, used against us. It says a lot that all those weapons are ignored, while everyone freaks out about William’s.
I’d also thank to thank the policeman and priest for thinking outside of the box and coming up with a more reasonable solution than normally might have been expected. It shows community spirit, if nothing else.
George,
What does not follow for you?
I think you should do it right, before you complain about another activist doing it wrong. That’s all.
Sorry, if you have a hard time following that concept.
Instead of rebutting my argument, you issued a personal attack, a kind of macho flash. That’s non sequitur.
The fact that I have not stood in William’s shoes does not rebut my argument.
My rebuttal was no more a personal attack on you than your argument a personal attack on Will.
I am sorry if you took it personally, it was not meant to be.
My point is it’s really easy to be an arm chair activist, but if you know the “right way” to do things then why haven’t you done it already?
If you know of a better way to do things show us how to do it. Show us how it should be done instead of telling people they failed because they did not do it your way.
I don’t think Will “fail”(ed.) Which is why I responded to your post.
BTW:
Will grabbed the sign that he already made for a state sovereignty rally because he did not have time to make another sign. (if you watch his interview on the ridley report)
You really should watch Ridley’s videos. Like the part where William Kostric says something like “The only sign I could get at the time was from a previous End The Fed rally.”
Paying Attention FAIL.
My point is it’s really easy to be an arm chair activist, but if you know the “right way” to do things then why haven’t you done it already?
I am. My activism starts with myself, understanding liberty, understanding truth – getting my head straight – forever learning.
We can’t change others very well. But we can change ourselves. I have done a lot of that and will continue doing it.
Show us how it should be done instead of telling people they failed because they did not do it your way.
We should be doing both. Separating one from the other is as productive as severing the head from the body.
Constructive criticism is extremely valuable.
I don’t think Will “fail”(ed.)
How do you know? Has he said what his goal was?
Will grabbed the sign that he already made for a state sovereignty rally because he did not have time to make another sign. (if you watch his interview on the ridley report)
I know. I watched the video. So what?
He associated the concepts of open carry and a call to armed revolution on national TV. He has to take responsibility for that. But he ducked the question about this on MSNBC.
He was trapped. He either had to repudiate his poster or he had to admit he was calling for armed rebellion and the murder of tyrants like Obama, who just happened to be on his way to William’s location.
Clearly he did not think that through. Which is what makes it absolutely essential for me to say what a tactical blunder his poster was – so it doesn’t happen again.
PS Zeus you may still have time to edit your last post there bud.
In that case, I find your criticism acceptable and also note my own failure at paying attention to what event he got that sign from.
Self-mnemonic FAIL.
I don’t even understand why people are so worried about the President getting killed anyway. After all isn’t that what the Vice President is for? After that there is a clear line of succession all the way down to the most junior member of the House. That’s like 500 people just waiting to step into the office. It’s not like the President is Alexander the Great or something where if he dies the whole thing falls apart.
Chris Matthews, I feel sorry for you. William handled himself very well against a professional adversary. Great job. Are people so far gone that they don’t understand that guns don’t kill people. This country is going to hell in a space shuttle. I hope things work out for me so I can get to New Hampshire. Live free or die!
George,
What is wrong with wanting to “water the tree of liberty?”
He took out the blood part, I don’t believe that there is anything wrong with watering the tree of liberty. As long as it’s not with blood.
Please don’t tell us the only way to water the tree of liberty is with blood. (I don’t think you would do that.)
BTW:
Will said he did it because he wanted people to remember the rights that we have and how quickly we are losing them.(from: the hardball interview)
I think Will accomplished his goal. I don’t think your comment of “Fail” is appropriate.
What is wrong with wanting to “water the tree of liberty?”
You know what quote that is from. Playing coy is what statists do. Be straight up.
It means killing tyrants like Obama.
Now, don’t get me wrong, self-defense is entirely moral and self-defense against any government official is entirely morally valid.
However, it is not tactically intelligent at this time because people don’t understand the distinction between aggression and self-defense and they are ignorant of the evils of government.
So the tactically smart thing to do is find more comrades so that when the armed fight comes to us (we aren’t seeking it!) we will be prepared and stand a fighting chance.
I don’t think your comment of “Fail” is appropriate.
How do you expect to reach people with the libertarian message of peace and trade if our comrades appear on national television armed and advocating for the killing of politicians?
That’s major fail.
I have already and in multiple places applauded William for his courage. I simply pan him for his lack of tactical intelligence in this particular case.
I met him at the Liberty Forum and I am certain he is an extremely upstanding and admirable individual. I criticize his choice of sign, not him personally – so that this mistake will not happen again.
It means killing tyrants like Obama.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
People tend to forget that the word “patriots” is also in there.
Obviously, Jefferson isn’t directing anyone to assassinate patriots, so what makes you think he’s directing anyone to assassinate tyrants? Language has specific meaning, not whatever you want it to mean.
He’s making a statement that freedom comes at a cost and the price is often paid in the blood of those who oppress and those who resist. He’s not directing anyone to kill anyone else, just saying that that’s what must inevitably happen so that a “country can preserve its liberties” and that “it’s rulers [must be] warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance”.
You are misconstruing and oversimplifying his words to make it sound like an order of assassination, exactly what the mainstream media is misconstruing it as.
Of course, this wouldn’t be a problem if most Americans today weren’t the product of government-run education and media, without which they might be familiar with the quote and the context in which it was meant.
Did anyone else notice the sad excuses for journalists in the first video saying that the 2 groups of people were “…for health-care and those opposed to health-care.”
What a bunch of shit-bags.
People tend to forget that the word “patriots” is also in there.
So he’s a suicide killer? That’s not an improvement.
You are misconstruing and oversimplifying his words to make it sound like an order of assassination, exactly what the mainstream media is misconstruing it as.
A lot of equivocation. What matters is how the message was received. It did not come off as peaceful.
I do not advocate disarming just because a politician is nearby. I simply advocating getting our message straight. It’s peace. Not violent revolution.
My point is we must be careful not only to be right but also to be perceived well, so that our movement grows and is not lumped in with the paranoid right.
It did not come off as peaceful.
Because of ignorance on the part of most Americans and their reliance on a deceptive (or know-nothing) media!
My point is we must be careful not only to be right but also to be perceived well, so that our movement grows and is not lumped in with the paranoid right.
Point taken.
George,
I will watch how YOU do open carry activism the “right way”, but until you DO that we’ll both know you are full of shit.
@ZEUS
“Carelessness costs lives, and that goes for anything, not just guns.”
Actually, no, that doesn’t go for “anything”; I hope we could agree that a gun is potentially more dangerous than a leaf, for instance.
“Pro-liberty activists promote self-responsibility and respecting the rights of others, whereas people like yourself blame inanimate objects and trade the liberty of others in a futile, obsessive attempt to attain invulnerability from the dangers of just being alive.”
As to whether you are in fact “Pro-Liberty” is certainly open to question. And of course human beings respond to various inanimate objects differently. You see no connection at all between the amount of gun violence we have in this country and the sheer number of guns in circulation here?
“Guns are dangerous weapons, no doubt about it. Making it illegal to carry one, however, not only violates the 2nd Amendment (and everyone’s right to defend themselves from harm regardless)……..”
By the way, do you recognize any limitations to the armaments/weapons an American citizen can own? How about machine guns, or biological or chemical weapons? Tactical nukes, once the technology enables it? Any cut off point, or is it all good?
“…..but it also empowers criminals (who don’t care about your laws in the first place) to perpetrate violence on an unarmed populace. Statistics prove time and again that a well-armed populace is a safer populace overall.”
Uh, no. Homicide rates tend to be related to firearm ownership levels. The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire. And of course, they are YOUR laws as well; I haven’t the slightest doubt that you abide by them and fund their continuation and enforcement. If they were so intolerable to you, you exercise any number of alternatives at your disposal.
“Relying on others for your defense, particularly when they have zero accountability, zero obligation and little incentive, can be — and often is — a fatal mistake.”
I agree that the choice of whether to own a firearm is an individual one, and should remain so. The right to legitimate self-defense must remain in a person’s hands.
By the way Zeus, is it your opinion that American citizens are facing debilitating restrictions in terms of obtaining firearms? Since we are simply awash in guns, I’m not seeing what all the paranoia is about.
Ann
Because of ignorance on the part of most Americans and their reliance on a deceptive (or know-nothing) media!
Zeus, the reason for it does not matter, not for tactical purposes. We must work with what we have. Just as it didn’t matter why William had that sign, so it doesn’t matter why people reacted poorly to it.
I will watch how YOU do open carry activism the “right way”, but until you DO that we’ll both know you are full of shit.
I open carry my Glock 23 in a black Galco FLETCH holster every day, and in a considerably less firearm-friendly place than NH!
That said, I am very grateful for all constructive feedback. I seek the truth. We all make mistakes. With more eyeballs, the bugs are shallow. Et cetera.
Question:
Assuming that a Town Hall Meeting held by a President occurs in a public place, is it the opinion of the brain-addled denizens of this site that attendees at such meetings should be allowed to carry loaded guns? Just wondering…..
attendees at such meetings should be allowed to carry loaded guns?
Who owns the property where the meeting is to take place? The decision is up to that person.
AnAmazedReader: “If they were so intolerable to you, you exercise any number of alternatives at your disposal.”
Please explain what alternatives you speak of??
Actually, no, that doesn’t go for “anything”; I hope we could agree that a gun is potentially more dangerous than a leaf, for instance.
Don’t be willfully ignorant, Ann. We’re not talking about leaves and you know it. If, however, you let your kids run around the neighborhood without supervision, you’re being careless. If you leave a chainsaw, an ax, a nail gun, a hammer or any other potentially dangerous tool out in the open, you’re inviting danger. If you leave the keys in the car while you’re kid is in it, you’re being careless. If you poke someone in the face with a stick, you shouldn’t be surprised if you damage their eye.
The point here being, as you well know, that people need to take responsibility for the things they do and the mistakes they make because they can have fatal consequences. Shifting the blame to the object for which you didn’t take proper care of or for which you ignored safety precautions is YOUR fault and no one else’s.
As to whether you are in fact “Pro-Liberty” is certainly open to question. And of course human beings respond to various inanimate objects differently. You see no connection at all between the amount of gun violence we have in this country and the sheer number of guns in circulation here?
I’ve seen the statistics, Ann. Places like DC and Chicago are hellholes of crime because the criminals are armed and the populace isn’t. When the populace has the power to protect themselves, the criminals go elsewhere for easier marks.
We’ve seen what happens in “gun free zones”.
If you’re worried about gun violence, your best defense is for moral people to be armed and vigilant. If you trust yourself and others from going crazy just because they wear blue, be my guest.
By the way, do you recognize any limitations to the armaments/weapons an American citizen can own? How about machine guns, or biological or chemical weapons? Tactical nukes, once the technology enables it? Any cut off point, or is it all good?
Biochem weapons and nukes wouldn’t exist if governments hadn’t sought them out and financed their creation using your money and mine without our permission. And no, I don’t believe anyone should have those particular things as they’re not defensive weapons. They’re weapons of genocide. Big difference.
Uh, no. Homicide rates tend to be related to firearm ownership levels. The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire.
You say tomayto, I say tomahto.
And of course, they are YOUR laws as well; I haven’t the slightest doubt that you abide by them and fund their continuation and enforcement. If they were so intolerable to you, you exercise any number of alternatives at your disposal.
I didn’t write those laws, I didn’t vote for those laws and didn’t agree to abide by those laws. That I haven’t violated them has more to do with me having a strong moral center, not being a violent person and not seeking control over others or their property. Not because I actively sought not to break or follow any specific laws.
As for funding them, I live my life in a way where any such funds being stolen from my pockets are minimal and, in many instances, zero.
What are you doing to reduce the violence and theft of the state, Ann?
I agree that the choice of whether to own a firearm is an individual one, and should remain so. The right to legitimate self-defense must remain in a person’s hands.
Something we finally agree on.
By the way Zeus, is it your opinion that American citizens are facing debilitating restrictions in terms of obtaining firearms? Since we are simply awash in guns, I’m not seeing what all the paranoia is about.
The paranoia, as you call it, is because history has show time and time again what happens when a country falling toward fascism disarms the people.
Ann, I have no idea how to get the message across to you as to what is happening to this country. You simply haven’t been exposed to the same news most of us have, you don’t have a solid pro-liberty center with which to process the information you do receive, and you place far too much trust in government and the mainstream media.
I don’t know how old you are but I’ve been told time and again by people in their 60′s that they’ve seen this country’s golden age. That in many ways, Americans are less free now than they were in the 40′s, 50′s and 60′s. And certainly, for those of us who grew up in the last few decades, everyone was orders of magnitude more free prior to 2001.
The country and everything good it was supposedly built on — reason, justic and liberty — are being thrown down the toilet. Everywhere you turn, the people no longer have any control over the monster that is government. The system is completely broken and something needs to fundamentally change. If we sit around and ignore it, it will only get worse.
Some have decide to join the FSP. Within that, some run for office, some do civil disobedience or non-cooperation and some just spend their time being free people among like-minded persons.
The majority, however, still thinks they can change the system by voting for Universal Cog A or Universal Cog B. Both Cogs are nearly identical and both are flawed.
I’m sure those who seek power and control over the people would like us all to go away. But even if they silenced us all today, however, more would rise up against them tomorrow.
You can’t stop the inherent human desire for freedom.
The subject at hand is about a man exercising his legal rights, supported to an extent by the local law (officer). Cause and effect. Man complies with law/law official complies with law. Open and shut case.
I’d hate to see anti-gun nuts or yellow journalists treat this opportunity to attack an inanimate object or the law now that William Kostric has fended off the initial televised attacks on his character and constitutional beliefs.
@GEORGE DONNELLY
“Who owns the property where the meeting is to take place? The decision is up to that person.”
George,
As I mentioned, the meeting is in a public place; here’s what I wrote:
“Assuming that a Town Hall Meeting held by a President occurs in a public place, is it the opinion of the brain-addled denizens of this site that attendees at such meetings should be allowed to carry loaded guns?”
So, what’s the answer folks? Since so many of you assert that the right to own and carry arms can’t be legally abridged, and that guns are simply neutral, inanimate objects, isn’t it safe to assume you think that having people carrying loaded guns attend a meeting with the President of the United States in a public place is a perfectly fine idea?
(Repost since you have not answered me) AnAmazedReader: “If they were so intolerable to you, you exercise any number of alternatives at your disposal.”
Please explain what alternatives you speak of?
(Now onto your current question) AnAmazedReader: Well I personally dont believe in public property. The idea IMO is not a very good one land that everyone owns and yet no one owns its more BS the government has created to control people.
@Vix
“Well I personally dont believe in public property.”
Sounds like someone thinks that the right to bear arms is subject to circumstantial infringement, doesn’t it? If not, why dodge the question?
In terms of alternatives, an obvious one that humans have exercised over the millennia is emigration; by the millions, people have left places they considered oppressive and settled in environments they felt were more congenial to them and their beliefs. Choosing a place to live can be thought of as similar to choosing any product; if you don’t like one brand, you choose another. But of course you and your fellow nutcases would never make that choice, because 1) you love it here; 2) you know, deep down, that many of your notions are exaggerated at best and preposterous at worst, and this is reflected by the fact that they haven’t been adopted by any functioning society on the planet; 3) the problem isn’t “government”, it’s your neurosis, and you will tend to carry that with you wherever you go.
AnAmazedReader: I thank you for finally answering my question.
“Choosing a place to live can be thought of as similar to choosing any product; if you don’t like one brand, you choose another.”
Yes but sadly there is only 1 product on the shelf there is no choice that’s what we have today with government.
Im not dodging any question I answered it truthful and your not happy with my answer. Your dislike of my answer is your problem not mine sorry.
As was stated above the owner/owners of the property where a meeting will take place can set whatever rules they wish its there property and in turn I have the right to go or not depending on the rules set by the owner/owners.
See how simple it is no force, no violence, and no need for government (or its long ago failed idea of public property).
Sounds like someone thinks that the right to bear arms is subject to circumstantial infringement, doesn’t it? If not, why dodge the question?
No, it sounds like he’s gathering information regarding property rights, because — as you must know by now after all the hours you spend on this site — property rights are the core principle on which all other rights are based.
If the owner of the property decides armed visitors are not welcome, then you respect his or her wishes and either don’t come at all or leave your weapon somewhere safe.
You’d know that, however, if you spent two-minutes of research by watching the Philosophy of Liberty video. Of course, then you might get cooties or have an epiphany and I’m sure the latter frightens you most of all.
In terms of alternatives, an obvious one that humans have exercised over the millennia is emigration; by the millions, people have left places they considered oppressive and settled in environments they felt were more congenial to them and their beliefs. Choosing a place to live can be thought of as similar to choosing any product; if you don’t like one brand, you choose another.
And we’ve chosen New Hampshire to emigrate to. Lucky you!
Just think of NH as a company we and our native NH friends are buying shares in. Eventually, we’ll perform a buy-out, becoming the majority stockholders and then all the statist parasites like yourself can go pound salt.
I hear Taxachusetts is great for someone of your… predatory predilections.
But of course you and your fellow nutcases would never make that choice, because 1) you love it here;
Well, it’s hard not to be somewhat attached to the places that forged many a memory, where most of the people you know happen to live and where all your stuff is.
Of course, the cure to that is the Free State Project. We come to New Hampshire in the spirit of peace and freedom to make New Hampshire even more peaceful and free! Smile for the camera!
2) you know, deep down, that many of your notions are exaggerated at best and preposterous at worst, and this is reflected by the fact that they haven’t been adopted by any functioning society on the planet;
What we know is that your system is broken and it can’t be fixed so we’re each doing what we think is best to make it go away or at least render it harmless. And if our notions haven’t been adopted by any functioning society on the planet, well shit… look at ‘em all. Most of them are still playing with communism or democracy or some other untenable notion doomed to failure just like the Roman Empire.
Don’t you worry now, though. Things are startin’ to accelerate as people finally realize that the system they’ve got now is like being on the deck of the Titanic and our movement, based in peace and liberty, is the only one with life-rafts.
3) the problem isn’t “government”, it’s your neurosis, and you will tend to carry that with you wherever you go.
If by “neurosis” you mean “the light of liberty”, then yes, we will carry that where ever we go.
If you’re feeling nostalgic, you still have some time to enjoy the tyranny while it lasts. Go ahead and pay some taxes, ask a cop to ticket you and vote for some scumbag politician. We’ll still be here when ya get back.
Ann,
The flight instinct would be a fine option accept for a few things you failed to acknowledge: 1) When I purchase a product, it is with an exchange of values and not subject to paperwork, identity checks, intrusive inspections of my anus. If there were not restrictions on movement and travel were not impeded by imaginary lines on a map then it would be as simple as you insist. Reality is, as always, against you on that one.
2) This country is supposed to be a beacon of liberty to world. Where does one go when the “freest country in the world” is no longer so?
3) My home is wherever I decide it is.
4) I am a free person, equal to all others. That isn’t a neurosis. The neurosis is found in those who wield power like an angry child, flailing their arms in a tantrum to have their way. Only the arms are the legislature and its enforcers.
5) It stands to reason that a person cannot abdicate or grant to others an authority they themselves do not have. That is the case with the founding of this country. Beyond a thinly veiled threat of violence, by what authority was this nation even established? What mystic authority bound inhabitants of this land to it forever?
3) My home is wherever I decide it is.
She’s gonna jump all over that one like a piranha. Seriously, you should have seen her go after a guy who misspelled.
So I hereby submit the following addendum:
3)My home is wherever I decide it is…
a) …so long as I have a just, moral claim of ownership on the property (such as an honest exchange of value for value) or
b) …the permission of the property owner.
Fine print: Governments, having attained their group wealth through theft and murder and often using the deceptive alias of “the public”, are illegitimate as property owners in any manner beyond private individual ownership with their own justly acquired wealth like everyone else.
As I mentioned, the meeting is in a public place; here’s what I wrote:
Public… Which government then? I guess it doesn’t matter since both the NH and US constitutions are clear that the right to keep and bear arms is inviolable.
You know, if it wasn’t for the fact that these politicians have glommed so much power and insist on keeping it, they would have nothing to fear.
@GEORGE DONNELLY
“Public… Which government then? I guess it doesn’t matter since both the NH and US constitutions are clear that the right to keep and bear arms is inviolable. You know, if it wasn’t for the fact that these politicians have glommed so much power and insist on keeping it, they would have nothing to fear.”
Well folks, there you have it. George Donnelly believes that it would be fine for attendees at a public meeting with the President to carry loaded weapons. Will anyone else man up and either agree or disagree with him? It really is a very simple question to answer.
Well folks, there you have it. George Donnelly believes that it would be fine for attendees at a public meeting with the President to carry loaded weapons. Will anyone else man up and either agree or disagree with him? It really is a very simple question to answer.
Assuming he’s not there to turn himself in for the murder and suffering of all the innocent people who’ve died or been maimed as “collateral damage” as a result of him continuing Bush’s conquest of other countries rather than prosecuting those who perpetrated it and removing the troops immediately, it depends on what the property owner’s rules are.
I’d have to assume that if he’s chosen to appear on someone’s property, he’s agreed to whatever rules they have allowing him to do so and likewise, anyone else who wants to be there should either abide by those rules or not attend.
But you’re not willing to address property ownership or the philosophy of liberty. Your obvious agenda is to demonize us as unreasonable whackjobs even though you’re the one supporting theft and murder by agents of the state as if that’s completely reasonable and not at all insane.
Exactly. Obama could specify in the contract that no firearms be allowed in the hall where he is to speak.
So AmazedReader you are oversimplifying the libertarian position.
But I don’t care if you scream to the hilltops that I have no problem with people being armed in the presence of the president. I can defend that. And even the secret service agree with me, so hey, can’t be all that controversial!
@GEORGEDONNELLY
“But I don’t care if you scream to the hilltops that I have no problem with people being armed in the presence of the president. I can defend that. And even the secret service agree with me, so hey, can’t be all that controversial!”
Right. I’m sure the Secret Service would be completely sanguine about the notion of people carrying loaded weapons to a Presidential speech or meeting. For instance, at the recent Town Hall in Portsmouth, I’m sure they would have felt fine about hundreds of attendees packing loaded heat. And since you since no problem with this idea, I assume that the next time you go to hear a President, Senator or Representative speak, you won’t feel any hesitation about bringing a loaded gun, if the fancy strikes you?
Your ideological devotion has compromised your ability to think rationally, George.
@Zeus:
“Your obvious agenda is to demonize us as unreasonable whackjobs even though you’re the one supporting theft and murder by agents of the state as if that’s completely reasonable and not at all insane.”
Zeus, nobody needs to have an agenda to portray yourselves as whackjobs; you all do an absolutely splendid job of it on your own.
One other thing, Zeus. Regarding FreeKeeners bleatings about the right to videotape on “Public Property”: if you don’t think such a thing as public property exists, what do you imagine they’re talking about? Or is it just another one of those typical FreeKeener bits of disingenuousness: refer to “the law” as something that must be followed (according to the way you interpret it) when you wish to; when you don’t simply declare that the law isn’t valid, or that it doesn’t exist, or that it doesn’t apply to you. Such a deal.
Right. I’m sure the Secret Service would be completely sanguine about the notion of people carrying loaded weapons to a Presidential speech or meeting.
You mean like all those self-same Secret Service agents packing heat at a gathering of hundreds of defenseless citizens? OMG! What if one of them GOES NUTS!? What could they possibly be thinking letting in those gun-carrying whackjobs!
Well, maybe it will be okay, I mean, there’s no evidence of government workers ever going postal, right?
Er… okay, but cops walk around with guns all the time and they’d never shoot a defenseless person… oh poop.
Um, the military wouldn’t… ah, screw it.
Zeus, nobody needs to have an agenda to portray yourselves as whackjobs; you all do an absolutely splendid job of it on your own.
Says the person who completely avoided dozens of questions and points I’ve asked or made throughout this thread because she’s absorbed state indoctrination hook, line and sinker and cannot defend her support of state violence and coercion using logic and reason and thus resorts to jumping down some guy’s throat for a spelling error and belittling some other guy’s intelligence.
Regarding FreeKeeners bleatings about the right to videotape on “Public Property”: if you don’t think such a thing as public property exists, what do you imagine they’re talking about?
I imagine that they’re talking about land that was illegitimately obtained by a gang of thugs who fund their activities by using force or the threat thereof to steal from the masses and who disingenuously misrepresent that land to them as though it were “owned and accessible by everybody” aka “public”.
“Look! We stole your money but you get to share some land!”. Bread and circuses.
Several of those Free Keeners have attempted to persuade that gang of thugs to back up their claims of the land being “public” by making use of it (such as videorecording on it or trying to create a garden).
As many of them have demonstrated for all to see, the government’s claim that the land is “public” is a complete and utter fraud.
If you try holding them accountable for their actions by recording them on that so-called “public land”, you’ll learn real fast that they don’t give a rat’s ass what their own laws are. All that crap is nothing more than an illusion to keep the sheeple in line and convince them that this is a “Nation of LAWS!” when in reality it’s a nation of LIES.
I’m sure the Secret Service would be completely sanguine about the notion of people carrying loaded weapons to a Presidential speech or meeting.
I see that went over your head. The secret service are people. And they are armed.
I assume that the next time you go to hear a President, Senator or Representative speak, you won’t feel any hesitation about bringing a loaded gun, if the fancy strikes you?
Why would I go hear a thief sweet talk me? Around here the thieves do house calls, we don’t have to go to them.
Again, amazed, if the politicians weren’t stealin’ so much, there would be no need to worry about people exercising their right to self-defense.
on this site AnAmazedReader is rarely, if ever, called a “troll” — the favorite of dishonorable fallacious slackers with no refutation.
despite its easily trounced ignorance? no, because of it. weak.
what happened to all that fallback “don’t feed the trolls” bullshit, slacks? almost creepy watching some of the same losers eagerly licking up morsels from AnAmazedReader and crapping them back. cowardly idiots.
She just battles back and forth with a select few people and ignores the points she can’t argue with. At least that’s how I interpret her lack of response to my direct response to her.
I don’t know if anyone here is interested, but the Chris Matthews video inspired me to write a blog about this whole birther thing, and why I think Obama does not release his birth certificate (hint: it is not that Obama is hiding anything).
http://festersden.blogspot.com/2009/08/real-reason-obama-keeps-this-birther.html
Hawaiian officials discarded paper documents in 2001. Because of that, Obama’s long-form birth certificate no longer exists and a shorter certificate of live birth that has been made public is the official record. This has been confirmed repeatedly by the Hawaii Dept. of Health, as well as the state’s Republican Governor, Linda Lingle.
The legitimacy of the Certificate of Live Birth has also been confirmed by the non-partisan site Factcheck.org:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/print_born_in_the_usa.html
It seems that so people simply can’t believe that the country’s most powerful political figure is a (gasp) “Negro”. Paranoia about payback being a bitch, I imagine. Or perhaps it’s the old mentality of the segregationist, to wit: “If I ain’t better than a n*gger, who AM I better than?”
Unfortunately, Ann is right for once.
While Ann worships “the country’s most powerful political figure” simply because the holder of that office — regardless who it is — can lie out his or her ass, order the deaths of tens of thousands of people, steal from billions more and not only get away with it but be praised and admired for it, others revile the current President not because of his wicked deeds but because of paranoia based on trivialities like his skin color, his birthplace, his religion and so forth.
The liberty movement cannot allow these unprincipled bigots and racists to go unchallenged lest they infect it with their hatred and provide ammo for state worshipers like Ann who will use these fools to demonize and smear the movement just like Chris Mathews tried to do to William Kostric when he kept trying to tie him to the birther movement.
The immoral and unjust use of violence and coercion are still evil regardless where you were born, what color you are or what you’re theory of the universe is.
ZEUS: Actually AnAmazedReader has been right 2 times that I can remember the 1st being on the comments section of Dave’s interview of William when the one called WAYPASTHADENOUGH called for us to use/support violence against the left/the state. He correctly pointed out that most if not all of us here won’t support violence as the means to get freedom.
@Zeus wrote:
“The immoral and unjust use of violence and coercion….”
Who decides what’s immoral and unjust, Zeus? You?
Who decides what’s immoral and unjust, Zeus? You?
Ann, the wonderful thing about the philosophy of liberty is that it’s so simple and logical that anyone who can be intellectually honest with themselves for about 8 minutes can master it and not need me or anyone else to hold their hand when using it to figure out what is just and moral in nearly any situation that presents itself.
To pretend right and wrong don’t exist or that it’s impossible to determine one from the other is a cop-out used to avoid responsibility for one’s actions.
@Zeus wrote:
“Ann, the wonderful thing about the philosophy of liberty is that it’s so simple and logical that anyone who can be intellectually honest with themselves for about 8 minutes can master it and not need me or anyone else to hold their hand when using it to figure out what is just and moral in nearly any situation that presents itself.
To pretend right and wrong don’t exist or that it’s impossible to determine one from the other is a cop-out used to avoid responsibility for one’s actions.”
Wow, Zeus, you really pussed out on this one. Of course there are all sorts of things that the vast majority of people would consider to be right or wrong. The question you are tellingly avoiding is: What do you do when people, even a tiny minority, disagree with that consensus? And perhaps more importantly, what about when the issue is not cut and dry, i.e. one on which reasonable people can disagree? Your assertion seems to be that everyone simply knows what is immoral and unjust, and agrees on it. Which is demonstrably and without question untrue. So, the question remains. Since universal agreement about what is immoral and unjust has never existed and will never exist, whose definition do we adopt, and how is that put into action? If you can’t realistically answer a question as simple as that, you’re living in a house of cards.
Ah, the task of coming up with practical, constructive solutions; the Waterloo of FreeKeeners.
Ann,
People do, and will act according to their beliefs. Currently, an overwhelming majority believe murder is immoral, and defense against murder is moral. I am sure there are a few who do not. If those few choose to attack others, they will find that those others will defend themselves against the attack, and they won’t get very far.
Similarly, suppose an overwhelming majority believed the initiation of violence is immoral, and defense against it moral. If a minority in that context believed theft was ok, for example, and they choose to steal from others, they also probably wouldn’t get very far.
I am sure, Ann, that you can ask questions without being insulting, if you try.
What do you do when people, even a tiny minority, disagree with that consensus? And perhaps more importantly, what about when the issue is not cut and dry, i.e. one on which reasonable people can disagree? Your assertion seems to be that everyone simply knows what is immoral and unjust, and agrees on it. Which is demonstrably and without question untrue. So, the question remains. Since universal agreement about what is immoral and unjust has never existed and will never exist, whose definition do we adopt, and how is that put into action?
That’s what arbitration is for, Ann.
In a free society where each person is a sovereign individual with a right to defend themselves from the aggression of others, a voluntary free-market system of dispute resolution based on reputation (think “The Scarlet Letter” meets Experian/TransUnion/Equifax) and restitution will arise to keep the peace.
Obviously, there will always be irrational people who might refuse to resolve the dispute via arbitration but the consequences for not doing so are prohibitive.
Besides being ostracized by individuals and not being able to do business with companies that support the reputation system or getting terrible deals with the ones that specialize in selling to people with bad ratings, you forgo the protection of arbitration, allowing the harmed party to correct the situation themselves using reasonable defensive force.
Utopia is a fallacy. There is no perfect society. But one in which people are free to live their lives unmolested by a monopoly on force is a far better one than we have now.
I know, Ann, you can’t imagine a functional society in which some group or another tells the lemmings what to do but that’s okay. You can always hire someone to tell you what to do and punish you if you disobey.
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