Six Innocents Arrested at 420 Rally

October 19, 2009 by Dale Everett
Filed under: Anarchy in Your Head, Copwatch, Personal Freedom, Police, Thuggery, Video

I wasn’t actually thrilled with the idea of having the rally during the Pumpkin Fest. I suggested we carve some creative Jack-O-Lanterns having a 420 rally and place them in the square as a quiet alternative. Well, others chose to continue, which is their right, so I did what I could to support them and at least make sure as many people as possible can witness police victimizing innocent people who own their own bodies with the tired excuse of “just doing my job”. If my job required me to victimize innocents, I would quit. I’d sooner flip burgers or sweep streets or something.

UPDATE: I took out the two-bit whore comment. It was a bit over the top as well as just not a very nice thing to say. I apologize to any prostitutes I may have offended.

http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Matt,

I don't know which arguments you're referring to, but there is a larger principle at work here. I would not try to convince someone to support cannabis decrim because of statistics showing it is not damaging to people's health, for example, because the implication would be that if it were damaging to people's heath, it should be illegal.

I reject the idea that the politicians own anyone else's body, or have a right to dictate to them what they do with it — what they eat, drink, smoke, etc. Fundamentally, the enforcement of arbitrary victimless crimes is immoral and tyrannical. I think many are not willing to compromise that larger, more important point, in order to garner a little support on this particular issue.
matt

Paul

Do you know why drugs are illegal in the first place?
matt

Don’t get me wrong, the laws should be reformed. To make an impact on legalizing or decriminalizing it, you guys should start at the school and prove that if you do indeed smoke marijuana you can still achieve a good GPA. That’s a typical shot to marijuana. Is that kids do shitty in school, and it also lowers people’s motivation. And people see that first hand in high school. But prove this shit wrong, and you college students can do so. As to my comment before, what I mean is present the facts in a college level. I’m sorry, but the guy with the microphone is a dumbass. Why not put some thought into your arguments. It’s like getting arrested for internal possession of alcohol and claiming you drank mouthwash. Come on! We heard it, thousands of times, and guess what it hasn’t worked, nor will it ever. Don’t get me wrong guys, don’t think I’m bashing on you guys, and if I was you wouldn’t give a fuck, but the augments being argued are failing but so is the “war” on drugs. So this says let’s try something new, let’s bring new material to the table, things that people never knew before, or really haven’t heard often. The reality is that not one drug is illegal because it’s harmful, but because years ago they wanted the minorities out of the country, stress that. That raises major questions. According to the Journal of the American Medical Association, alcohol and tobacco combined are responsible for about 520,000 deaths a year. In 2004 the death toll connected with illegal drug use (including overdoses, drug related homicide, suicide, motor vehicle accidents, HIV infections hepatitis, ect.) was only 17,000.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Why historically, or why philosophically? Historically there were and continue to be a number of factors, as there always are — as I understand it, for example, cotton growers were big behind the push to outlaw cannabis and hemp, as the crop was a major competitor.

It's the same with many regulations — the government gets its sticky fingers into an issue, for usually completely false reasons, and won't let go. For example, the only reason marriage licenses are required today is because states at one time wanted to prohibit interracial marriages.

The crux of the issue for me is the larger philosophical point, because it is behind a wide variety of government abuse, not just the drug war. People today are under the delusion that completely immoral behaviors magically become moral if a large enough mob supports it. That's how we get a nation of people who would never dream of breaking into their neighbors house and stealing their TV, or mugging them on the street corner, to help subsidize, say, their corn farm — but have no problem hiring government goons to do the same exact thing for them.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Hey, I've got no problem with trying some new arguments. I guess, I'm just personally motivated by the fundamental moral issue at hand. You should come to the 420 event some time, make up some signs outlining your arguments (if they can be boiled down to sign-size), and get your message out! Heck bring a megaphone if you want — it's still a sorta kinda free country in that way at least.
AnAmazedReader

Matt,

With due respect, I'd urge you not to fall for the shtick. This site is not about solving problems; it's about losers who have developed a cast of villains to blame for their failures in life. All they've got is a self-assigned, delusional sense of moral superiority with which they hector local folks who disagree with their point of view. It's their reason for being, and the aggression behind it would never be sated by engaging in the sort of study, open-mindedness and push for tangible accomplishment that most people consider a constructive response to a perceived injustice (that sort of thing is for "untermenschen"). Mindless protest is the point here, because somehow it makes these guys (and yes, this group is, by and large, post-adolescent guys) feel better about themselves. You will notice that the little dustup in Central Square over the past few weeks hasn't actually resulted in any substantive, "documentable" progress on the actual issue. But a few of these folks got some attention, and just as when a mother finally responds to a child that's acting out, that attention is an obsessively-desired, perverse stimulant. That's what FreeKeeners are about; the actual issues are irrelevant.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Ann, if you were at all interested in study, open mindedness, or substantive discussion instead of smarmy and arrogant snap psychological judgments of strangers, you would have answered the questions posed in my comment here, which I have brought to your attention a number of times: http://freekeene.com/2009/08/14/courtroom-disobed….
Publics Eyes

ENDGAME

TO clear Fred Parsells, The old Principle Karen Parsells that you speak of would be Fred's Parsells Brother Donald's newly married wife. Now Fred does have a wife also named Karen just an FYI.
matt

I just got one more question. How is smoking marijuana a moral issue? Morals are principles of right and wrong issues. You guys CANNOT argue that smoking anything, whether its tobacco or cannabis, is right. I know you guys haven’t said this but, I’m so sick of people who start smoking marijuana and think their “Hippies” and think the drugs all peace and love. First of all hippies are no longer, they don’t exist! Just wanna be’s and think it’s cool. GET A MIND OF YOUR OWN! As far as people thinking is all “peace” and filled with “love”… HA! Who do you think brings this stuff into the country? Gangs and drug cartels who are willing to kill anyone who gets in their way. I’m only directing these comments to people who are like this, start smoking and think there all about peace and love, I’m sorry that is bullshit.

This is a bit different but I recently went to UNH to visit and I noticed kids walking around with balloons full of nitrous. I was like what the fuck is that shit. These kids were like “Dude you see that Steve-o thing on MTV. That was so sick!” I’m saying to myself, you fucking moron, he produced that show to discourage people from doing using drugs, not to encourage drugs. I also know you guys do that up in Keene too. What I’m getting to kind of is that if marijuana was legal, would everyone who uses drugs be satisfied? And where will the legalization of drugs stop. On the video an old guy was holding a sign advocating all drugs. Is that what you guys are for? Or all drugs? If you guys are about all drugs, have you ever known a heroin addict and what they act like? Take that Steve-o show for an example; do you want society acting that way? What will this country get accomplished? I asked myself this question because I used to smoke every day, but no longer really touch the stuff, but I want to ask you Marijuana smokers this. If you had to get some delicate surgery, say heart surgery, where one slip of the scalpel could kill you. Would you want the doctor to be stoned? It doesn’t impair you……right? Think about it and comment back. Again I’m not bashing on you guys, but I thinks is appropriate to be rational and look at both sides. Don’t be bias just because you want to get high and don’t want to be bothered by the law. THINK RATIONALLY. And really think morally.

Matt (SORRY ITS SO LONG!)
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Smoking cannabis is not a moral issue — I myself don't use pot at all. Throwing people in cages who do use it, however, is a moral issue. Threatening and using aggressive violence against your peaceful neighbors in order to force them to live in ways of which you approve is morally wrong.

Of course no one should be stoned while performing surgery, that's just silly. I wouldn't want a drunk doctor either, and alcohol's legal.

The issue is not drug use itself. The issue is widespread violations of personal liberty on the part of the government, and the failure of government bureaucrats and enforcers to live up to basic rules for moral decency in their interactions with their neighbors.
Publics Eyes

ELKFART

Are you saying Fred Parsells is running this freestaters/420crowd ????
matt

Paul

The people who are getting thrown in jail arent the people just buying 20 bags. These people distrubute by the pound and often carry guns and wouldnt hesitate to kill. Look at mexico, hundrend are dying because of marijuana. These are the type of people who are getting locked up. Not you and I who would buy like a QP at most
Publics Eyes

MATT

Well put!!!
matt

Are you guys just for marijuana or all drugs?
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Matt, the reason drugs are distributed by these sorts of people is the drug war itself. It is the same thing that happened during the prohibition on alcohol, when Al Capone took over the industry. If we were to legalize drugs, the funding would be ripped out from nearly every violent gang in the country, and international cartels overseas. These people could not compete with CVS, walgreens, or the legit American farmer — they survive only because these products are illegal. After all, where do you go for alcohol these days? I'm guessing not Mick on the corner.

What's more, murder IS illegal, and should be. If they're murderers, that's what they should be locked up for.

It's not about the substance, it's about its legality. If you made orange juice illegal today, and started a "war on orange juice", tomorrow it would also be supplied by gangs, violent criminals, or the mob.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

I believe the only legitimate crimes are aggressive acts of violence against another person or their property. If a person manages to use a drug without harming other people or their property, I absolutely would leave them alone.

The initiation of aggressive violence against a peaceful person is always immoral. That is, the only appropriate use of violence is defensive. I have all sorts of beliefs about right and healthy living, but I have no right to force them on you at the point of a gun.
matt

So your saying you should be allowed to do any drug? Lets say i get addicted to heroin, is my health insurance comapny gonna pay for my rehab? Even if you legalize them, drug crmies will still exist. Hard drugs, legal, or illegal, they will still ruin people and they will still commit crimes to get the drug. The drug will consume their lives and they will end up still stealing for the drug. What about mothers who raise children, they should be allowed to be high?
Dr. Q

Matt wrote:

"Hard drugs, legal, or illegal, they will still ruin people and they will still commit crimes to get the drug."

If that's true, then what's the point of making them illegal?
matt

You have to agree, out of all the things this country needs to do, this isnt very important.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

"Lets say i get addicted to heroin, is my health insurance comapny gonna pay for my rehab?"

I don't know, that would be between you and your insurance company.

"Even if you legalize them, drug crmies will still exist. Hard drugs, legal, or illegal, they will still ruin people and they will still commit crimes to get the drug. The drug will consume their lives and they will end up still stealing for the drug."

There would be far, far less crime. Most of these drugs would be extremely inexpensive in a free market environment, which would mean addicts would not have to come up with thousands of dollars to fund their habit. Again, consider alcohol, which, during prohibition, used to be associated with a huge number of crimes. I am sure a person exists somewhere today who robs in order to buy booze, but at a couple bucks a bottle for the cheap stuff, it's certainly not common. And, as I say, it would cut off the flow of money to these cartels and gangs.

"What about mothers who raise children, they should be allowed to be high?"

It seems to me that it might be difficult for a mother to use hard drugs without being neglectful or abusive. Neglect and abuse should be prohibited — they represent an act to harm the baby, who would be the victim. If, somehow the mother could use a drug without being abusive or neglectful, that's their business.

Also, if the mother is nursing, use of drugs itself would represent an act to harm the baby, as the baby would also be consuming the drug.

Just remember: When you are saying a behavior should be illegal, you are saying that violence should be used against people who do it. Ask yourself this: If you were a neighbor to the mother in question, what actions of hers do you think would justify you going over to her house with a gun and, say, taking her baby?

I would feel justified doing so only if her acts were directly inflicting harm on the baby, or if I truly felt that the baby were in eminent danger of serious harm.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Actually, Matt, given the degree violence caused by gangs and cartels, and the number of peaceful people thrown in jail for simple possession (almost a million now) — and of course the harm done to their kids and spouses which they leave behind, I would say it's vitally important.

It is also important to establish that the government does not own our bodies. You may not use cannabis, and I don't, but believe me, the creeping tyranny will continue. They're already prohibiting people from allowing smoking in their own restaurants, banning trans-fats in some areas, huge penalty taxes on fast food in some places, and on alcohol most places, etc.

As Pastor Martin Niemöller once said regarding the tyranny in his time,

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

I must stand for the liberties of others, even if I don't personally choose to exercise those liberties.
matt

Dr.

Good comment and good point. My point is that Paul said all drugs are legal it will fix all these problems but all the problems that come with being addict you can never solve. Why make illegal? These types of drugs you shouldn’t be able to go to the store and pick. Have you ever known a heroin addict? I bet if you did you would think otherwise. Although I will say in your favor that some country I forget which one made heroin legal and the amount of usage dropped 60%. That’s GINORMOUS figure. However, they made it illegal. However DR, when you have kids, do you want them to be able to go to the store and buy MDMA or heroin? You can say yes, but I bet when you have kids you will think otherwise.
matt

"They’re already prohibiting people from allowing smoking in their own restaurants"

Second hand smoke is proven to be deadly. Dont get my wrong, i smoke cigs and i would love to toast one in those types of places. But honestly, is it fair to those who dont smoke, and have children. However banning smoking in bars, restaraunt owners reported a big drop in business
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

I don't think legalizing drugs will fix all problems — you are right that heroin, for example, is a horrible drug that destroys lives. I just don't think it helps the situation to throw that person in jail. They should be getting help — like alcohol abusers do in AA. Sadly, many are too scared of prosecution to come out and ask for the help they need.

I wouldn't have a problem with it being illegal to sell drugs to young kids — same as alcohol (although I think 21 is probably too old of a cutoff). Young kids are not yet capable of making fully informed decisions about their lives.
Dr. Q

No one is arguing that all the problems associated with drug abuse will disappear over night if drugs are legalized, but I do think that some of these problems are caused or exacerbated by the fact that drugs are illegal (for the reasons that others have already stated).

Do you really believe that locking drug users (including ones who haven't committed other crimes that actually have victims) up in cells is going to solve anything?

And please stop conflating my support for the legalization of drugs for support for the use of drugs. I believe heroin should be legal, but I would never recommend heroin use to anyone.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Matt, It should be up to the owners to decide whether they will allow smoking. If an owner decides to allow it, and you don't like second hand smoke, you have a right to not patronize his restaurant. It's their business, and their property, not yours or mine.
Dr. Q

Matt wrote:

"Second hand smoke is proven to be deadly. Dont get my wrong, i smoke cigs and i would love to toast one in those types of places. But honestly, is it fair to those who dont smoke, and have children."

If people don't want to inhale cigarette smoke when they go to restaurants/bars, then all they have to do is not patronize restaurants/bars that allow smoking. No government bans are necessary. It really is that easy.
http://6 matt

So its the prison systems fault.
http://6 matt

Dr

I don’t know if I understand what you are saying. But if you were a restaurant owner, knowing that allowing the right to smoke helps business. However, on the other hand, morally you know it’s wrong, what would you choose?
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

I don't think it would be morally wrong to allow smoking, as long as you made it clear, perhaps with a sign on the door, that smoking is allowed. People who don't mind smoke, or smoke themselves, could come, while those who don't like smoke can stay away.
matt

We're getting of subject, but law regaurding smoking in public place was just recenty changed in 2004. They want be change in the near future. I dont think it will ever change back. Modern day society is all about health and fitness.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Heath and fitness is great, but it should be a personal choice. When I start showing up at your door at 5am with a gun, to force you to take your morning jog, the issue is not personal fitness, it is tyranny.
Dr. Q

If I owned a restaurant, I probably wouldn't want people to smoke in it, because I can't stand cigarette smoke.
matt

paul

i dont get what you trying to say about this "When I start showing up at your door at 5am with a gun, to force you to take your morning jog, the issue is not personal fitness, it is tyranny." Whos pointing a gun at you regaurding marijuana?
joe

I am done, you guys in Keene good luck! Fight for what you think is right! But please put some research behind it and get some educated facts. Don’t advocate what everyone already knows. To legalize it you have start making citizens of all question the law. So put some thought into it and you will make a much bigger impact. The argument "Well Alcohol is legal, why isn’t marijuana" is old and not effective. Like I said before it’s like getting arrested for internal possession of alcohol and claiming you drank mouthwash. But if you get a lawyer to defend you they are going to bring facts and arguments that are educated to convince the jury. The jury in yours is well society. All of you guys should get together and put together a research paper. This will for one show marijuana smokers aren’t lazy, but motivated, and its shows you are committed in what you believe in. Don’t take the easy way, which is doing no work, get high, at argue "I want to get high because I can get drunk" You all are college kids, use your brains and put something that will get people questioning. Its either do the stoner way, which you guys are doing know (Don’t take it personal) or doing the proper way with facts and knowledge. GOOD LUCK!

Ps. don’t let that guy with the microphone have it again, better off leaving him in jail. You need smart people who give thoughtful argument and know actually know what their arguing about.

My personal opinion on the situation, decriminalize it, not legalize it.

-Matt
joe

Dr

Why should families not go to restaurants because others are a health concern? The point of going out to eat is to eat. Not smoke. It’s not hard to step outside quick
matt

Joe? Im fucking matt. I dont know why my comments are named Joe. Who the hell is he!
observer

This is mainly directed at Ian and anyone else that harbors his position on this matter: While I think stoking it up should not be an issue at all and I generally dislike cops and what they stand for, I'll say this: You people were warned not to come out that day. It is my understanding that you have been doing this every day for the past few months without incident. What does that tell you about the position the cops have taken on your protests? Sounds like an unspoken agreement on their part to not bother you guys even though the law tells them they should bother you. They told you that on pumpkin day that they were going to be cracking down so anyone that went that day was looking to get arrested for protesting. Fine, your choice. Like Mark on FTL said, don't go copping an indignant attitude as if you're surprised at the outcome when you knew in advanced of what you were doing. YOU were warned, and YOU choose to go anyway, ergo, YOU wanted to get arrested. I don't think you should have been arrested but that is not how it went and don't pretend that it was a surprise and that you're the poor little victims. The fact that there is such an issue about what people choosing to do with their bodies at all shows how retarded society is. To those that see this as a moral issue: You're an idiot and I hope eventually you figure out why.
anano

You need to get a permit for the right to assemble like that. If the plice try to break it up then its spells law suite all over it. But i mean pumkin fest has littls childern and families enjoying the season. Its one thing exposing them to the issue, but the action of doing the actual drug in fornt of them. Thats totally wrong!
observer

@Aano: I don't know you so I can't say if you're being facetious but remember that part I said about people thinking it is a moral is a retard. How is it "wrong" to smoke weed in front of a kid compared to a cig? What difference is it to the kid? You trying to tell me joints are more destructive and addictive than cigs? If so, then crawl back to your government and ask them to save your child from the big bad pot heads not to mention YOU.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Matt, my comment was intended to address the cigarette issue, but the government certainly is pointing a gun at me regarding cannabis. They literally threaten to show up with guns and put me in a cage if I smoke, grow, or sell it.

Threatening violence against someone in order to force them to have what you consider a healthy lifestyle is absolutely tyrannical and immoral.
anano

well, reality is that ones legal, ones not.
matt

You have still neglected to answer my question. Should legalizing drugs be the country’s main priority? How about bring the troops home?
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

For my part, if I had to only choose one: cannabis legalization or bringing the troops home from the 130 odd countries they're in around the world, I would choose the latter. Taxes are another issue I consider more important than cannabis — it actually really underlies both of those problems and many others, but that's probably a bigger, more difficult fish to fry.
http://www.soundclick.com/thinkliberty thinkliberty

Matt,

I think ending ALL violence should be the country's main priority. That includes legalizing drugs and bringing the troops home.