Free Keene

Comment by END GAME

October 31, 2009 @ 3:24 pm

Careful the owner is married to one of those nefarious EMT agents that you have had issues with. May want to check your food

Comment by nick

October 31, 2009 @ 3:44 pm

I don’t think they’re married yet.

Comment by Ian

October 31, 2009 @ 3:52 pm

I only had an issue with one of them, Ron Leslie, though the rest of his crew on duty at the time did lie to cover for him. I’m not looking to ostracize, as I have already forgiven.

Thanks for trying, though!

Comment by END GAME

October 31, 2009 @ 4:56 pm

No problem, pal

Comment by Zeus

October 31, 2009 @ 8:54 pm

So… where’s it being held again?

Comment by Lpviper

October 31, 2009 @ 8:58 pm

No pouting EG, very untrolllike

Comment by bil

November 1, 2009 @ 5:49 pm

So is everyone that has a divergant opinion automaticaly a troll??Where do I get the troll hat,there are some things here i disagree with,some I agree with.I could wear the hat depending on the subject.If we all agree on everything,wouldn’t WE be the ones in charge,and ‘they’ would be posting about ‘us’? —bil

Comment by END GAME

November 1, 2009 @ 7:27 pm

I found my troll hat under a bridge Bil

Comment by theKINGofKEENE

November 1, 2009 @ 8:04 pm

How are we supposed to tell whether or not you’re wearing your *TROLL*HAT* right now???…& END GAME has a freakin’ nick-name now???…”EG” – s/he called you “EG”??? WTF!?…dude, aren’t you gonna threaten to kill them or something???…

Comment by bil

November 1, 2009 @ 8:07 pm

Was that the bridge with the billy-goats??? —bil

Comment by END GAME

November 1, 2009 @ 11:07 pm

Well I’ll call you KOK if you want King, Why would I want to kill them? Persecute and incarcerate yes, however a death sentence is a little harsh. I love the little freedom freaks.

Comment by theKINGofKEENE

November 1, 2009 @ 11:58 pm

If you love them, why do you want to “persecute and incarcerate” them???…and, I said “threaten to”…right???…also, somebody else on here used “KoK”, as the short form of “theKINGofKEENE”, but it’s more accurately: “NAIKOK”…whatever. &No, I don’t want an Exampla Gratis, oak hay?…why do you think that I want to be known as Kok???…later!…

Comment by elee3

November 2, 2009 @ 9:59 am

EG, you do realize that persecute and prosecute are not the same thing, right?

Comment by xrazorwirex

November 2, 2009 @ 2:16 pm

http://cdn3.knowyourmeme.com/i/7658/original/1248582307944.jpg?1249587576

Comment by END GAME

November 2, 2009 @ 5:12 pm

ELEE3, Yes I am aware “Persecute” is what I meant. King, how bout we add another O and call you KooK? Ha!. Razor lame graphic

Comment by Zeus

November 2, 2009 @ 5:57 pm

Recognizing one’s self as a sociopath is always the first step in conquering it. Say it with me now: “Goosefraba”.

Comment by bil

November 2, 2009 @ 7:43 pm

I think it is more important to recognise if you are a psychopath,although if you are either,it will probably be pointed out eventually.Deciding whether to conquer it is a personal choice.
Have you ever pondered the irony of having a happy get-together in a place called Vendetta?
—bil

Comment by Zeus

November 2, 2009 @ 7:49 pm

Yes, but more often I ponder the irony of living in a country that is still called the “land of the free” when it gets less so every day.

Comment by bil

November 2, 2009 @ 8:55 pm

It has been getting this way for a long time,but I think those in charge have become emboldened by past success,and have stepped into the light too much-more folks have spotted them and are realising what has been going on.To have Habeus corpus disregarded and trampled would have been unthinkable just a few years ago,but now under the scare tactic of the war on terror,it barely passes notice.Where is the outrage??Where is the disent from the average man??Have we gone so far that as long as there is beer and something on TV,the rest doesn’t matter??I try to keep fairly light with my attitude,but I am really pissed,not just at the powers that be,but the average person that is so apathetic that this is allowed to happen.It is not a Republican or Democrat thing,it is us against an oligarchy.The evil behind it is amazing.
I try to save my rants for the more radical sites,but this one slipped out.I feel better now,wonder whats on the tube! —bil

Comment by Jessica Graveline

November 6, 2009 @ 10:50 am

Please note this submitted, but as of yet unpublished letter to the editor of the Keene Sentinel:

Imagine my surprise when my boyfriend, a member of the Keene Fire Department, informed me that my restaurant, Fritz, had become the “Free Staters” Sunday meeting ground. In an act that may have begun with good intentions, I am put in a position that requires clarification.

Despite the unwitting representation of my business on the Free Keene web-site, I never consented to their choosing Fritz as a new meeting ground. In accordance with most restaurant business models, the use of Fritz’s dining room is a service I enjoy providing to individuals in exchange for the purchase of food and to groups in exchange for rent or catering services. Until now, I have not had to enforce this most basic principle, but am saddened I may have to if I feel my services are being taken advantage of.

Upon reviewing the Free Keene website I found my business name juxtaposed with political content of which neither Fritz, nor myself are associated. This coincidence has caught my business in the crossfire of a situation I have no intention or desire of getting directly involved in.

I’m not opposed to followers of the Free State movement eating at my establishment, as people of all political views and ideologies are welcome to patronize. However I am opposed to political groups using my restaurant as a place to organize and solicit new members, especially without my approval. In response to the Free Keene’s plan to invite themselves to Fritz for their weekly meetings my response is “No, Thank You”.

Jessica Graveline
Owner, Fritz Belgian Fries LLC

Comment by Ian

November 6, 2009 @ 11:20 am

My emailed reply to Jessica:

Jessica,

Hello, I’m Ian Freeman, one of the bloggers at FreeKeene.com. I don’t know what you’ve been told, but the weekly “Social Sundays” gathering is nothing more than a social gathering. The group is not political nor are we using your establishment to do anything other than eat, drink, and be merry. There is no solicitation of any form going on.

Last weekend about ten liberty-minded people (not all are “Free Staters”) met at your establishment between 2 and 3:10pm, and I’m pretty certain every one of them purchased food and/or drink. Ten is actually a low turnout for this event, but if you’d rather not have us, we’ll certainly respect that and we’ll move the event somewhere where our business is welcomed.

I hope you’ve just been given some misinformation and jumped to some conclusions without reaching out to us first. I apologize for not getting in touch with you directly about this in advance. I had contacted your staff and was told that we’d be welcome to bring our business to Fritz.

I’m going to presume you’ve been given some misinformation, because I really enjoy your establishment and hope to continue patronizing it personally, even if we do move Social Sundays to another location. Please don’t hesitate to call if you have any questions.

Comment by Ian

November 6, 2009 @ 11:23 am

Hmm, her email address she provided is not working. I will attempt to track down the actual email so I can get this to her.

Comment by END GAME

November 6, 2009 @ 1:37 pm

Once again let it go, she gave you a dummy e-mail so you wouldnt reply. I think her letter sums it up, she’ll take the hit in the wallet, to prevent you from organizing there. Why dont you try Mcdonalds, or Wendy’s…..Burger King has a playground for youse guys to play on.

Comment by Zeus

November 6, 2009 @ 2:37 pm

Bigot.

Comment by Paul

November 6, 2009 @ 2:50 pm

EG,

Provide a logical defense of government behavior. You can’t, so you stoop to childishness.

Comment by Ian

November 6, 2009 @ 3:53 pm

EG, why would I let it go? Clearly I should apologize and clear up any misinformation. Perhaps she made a mistake on her email, or perhaps it’s not even her at all.

Comment by name(required)

November 6, 2009 @ 10:40 pm

This is classic. Its outstanding how you all wield your market presence like a septor… Oh wait…FAIL.. its amazing no one wants the cheap, broke, obnoxious, gun toting,”ill just have another water” scene making crowd around to baby sit after a long week of working. The way this whole thing transpired speaks volumes about how inadequate you are as a group. I know, I know, you’re all “individuals” and you hate the idea of being in a “collective”, but honestly, people who arent in groups dont need a bull horn. Ian, instead of reaching out in the community to buisiness owners and making a valuable inroad, has made a unilateral decision to mount up the troops and just show up. The same approach was used at Armadillos, by the way. For Ian and many of you, its the bridges you burn that light your way. Lets show up in this small New England town, alienate ourselves with inane baffoonery, start a beef with fire and rescue personel, and (try to) take over a whole restaurant with assholes who pride themselves on public confrontation. My observations come from watching how you operate here in town and the reactions you get from people. I have seen you together as a group eating, telling war stories of your idiotic movement and I can assure you all that none of you would benefit from a system, economic or other wise more Darwinian than already exists. You look like a Magic the gathering tournament in the middle of a heat wave. Im sure the invisible hand of the market is bitch slapping most of you to death.

Comment by Ian

November 6, 2009 @ 10:53 pm

Way to stand behind your post, Mr. Anonymous.

“I’ll have another water”? Certainly some of the activists are poor single men, but I’m pretty sure everyone at Fritz ordered a drink, fries, or sandwich this past weekend. Try again.

“Mount up the troops”? I’d hardly call deciding on a place for a social gathering, “mounting the troops”.

“Start a beef with fire and rescue”? I have no beef with them, it’s their captain who stole my phone. He chose to be unprofessional and I forgave him for it.

“Assholes”? Just goes to show you haven’t ever bothered to speak with any liberty advocates. Most of them don’t fit that description.

Gandhi said, “First they ignore you…”

We’re well past that stage.

“Then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.”

Seems like we’re in the 2nd and 3rd stages. Thanks for taking the time to validate this movement.

Comment by name(required)

November 7, 2009 @ 12:18 am

Ian,

If validation is something that you require, you might want to take a more measured approach to how you see yourself in a historical perspective. Your unbelievable self aggrandizing by co-opting historys most terrible human tragedies is a huge albatross for you guys. The only thing you have in common with Ghandi is probably waist size. There are more than a few subtle differences between your heroic stand for public pot smoking and the meager matter of Brittish mass murder during the Indian occupation. In any case you are the uninvited guest in this situation. I probably would have chozen a reference where people moved from somewhere else to a new place where other folks already lived to change it and then invited all of their friends to come along. Im sure there are a few stories and lessons out there. Your movement will not die for lack of ideas, it will die from, strangely, the very thing it believes in the most. The market will starve you all. Every other post on here is: “moving to Keene, Ill just need 9 months to save up 1200.00″, or “Ill need to couch surf for a while.” For a bunch of market worshipers you would think there would be a little more capital. How many “web developers” and “IT” personel do you think the market will support here? I’d say we’re reaching oversaturation on wedding videographers. If you guys showed up, opened shop, created jobs and pumped real money into the economy you would have something.You cant show a working model of your magical philosophy. Sadly all you have is your ideas. The market hates a loser.

Comment by Zeus

November 7, 2009 @ 3:11 am

Creedy: “Why won’t you die?”

V: “Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, Mr. Creedy, and ideas are bulletproof.”

Comment by END GAME

November 7, 2009 @ 7:39 am

Really…..quoting V after a powerful post like that way to rebut Frodo. Ian lose your temper much

Comment by Zeus

November 7, 2009 @ 8:38 am

Frodo, indeed. Everyone knows Gandalf is the shit.

You call that “a powerful post”? It’s just a bunch of insults and slanderous speculation that the majority of people in the movement are poor anorexic geeks. Not surprisingly, it ends with a push to participate in your broken system:

“If you guys showed up, opened shop, created jobs and pumped real money into the economy you would have something.”

Maybe if your politicians and bureaucrats would stop fucking the country up, you wouldn’t need us to participate and help feed the machine?

Predictably, Name (Required)’s post ends with derision thinly disguised as false sympathy regarding our “magical philosophy” and “ideas”.

Maybe there’s a grain of truth in what you say. Maybe a large majority of people in the movement are of above-average intelligence, socially-awkward, excessively thin, technologically-savvy and entertained by fantasy and/or science-fiction.

Even if any of that irrelevant nonsense were true, it doesn’t change the fact that you, E.G., and Name (Required) are deriding a movement based around a simple, logical, peaceful philosophy that promotes a method for interacting with each other that is clearly a quantum leap better than the broken and abusive system you currently champion.

Activists like Ian are doing whatever it is they individually think might turn the tide of shit your system is spewing on the American people. How successful it will be remains to be seen, but at least its something other than posting insults on a forum, being an all-around asshole and relishing the accelerating clusterfucking of the American people and the philosophical ideals the country was founded on.

If you don’t like how Ian is trying to change things for the better, for fuck’s sake get off your goddamn ass and DO something you think will work instead of sitting there like a dipshit and laughing as everything swirls down the toilet. What the fuck is WRONG with you? Seriously. What kind of human being does that? How brainwashed do you have to be to not only support such a system but actively enjoy the suffering of those whom it abuses?

You say all we have are ideas and magical philosophies? What do you have besides your snide, superior attitudes and your love of organized violence, theft and coercion? As much as I’d like to be sympathetic and say I understand and forgive you as Ian recommends, I can’t even feign sympathy for such sick and disgusting behavior, particularly when it is pursued with such zealous vim and vigor.

You support violence and theft. We support peaceful interaction. That’s the bottom line, the indefensible rift that separates us from you.

Comment by End Game

November 7, 2009 @ 8:55 am

Now Zeus thats more like it……Although it seems you may have fallen of Olympus and hit your head. People such as myself believe in the system that is in place, and believe in the processes that are available to change things. Your band of freaks are nothing but counter productive freeloaders that are a drain on the community. Please pass the water. Bums

Comment by Zeus

November 7, 2009 @ 9:01 am

People such as myself believe in the system that is in place, and believe in the processes that are available to change things.

Yeah, and its working so well.

Keep telling yourself that when you’re standing in the breadlines, zombie.

Comment by name(required)

November 7, 2009 @ 9:36 am

Thanks EG,

Like how dunce er, Zeus has decided to refute my “magical philosophy” accusation by quoting a dystopian movie, or more accurately, comic book? That is the reality detachment systemic in the movement. Zeus looks around downtown keene and sees a post apocyliptic fascist police state, He sees me as some one who has become so dependant on the matrix I would do any thing to protect it, he looks in the mirror an sees a freedom fighter. He and many others have taken Mr Rogers trolley into the neiborhood of make believe, I guess that would make Ian King Friday. come on guys, working model, not make pretend. Creating or re creating society would take grown ups.

Comment by Zeus

November 7, 2009 @ 10:21 am

Like how dunce er, Zeus has decided to refute my “magical philosophy” accusation by quoting a dystopian movie, or more accurately, comic book?

Right, because comic books are for kids because, after all, only kids can afford $4 a pop and all the funny books are just cutesy pablum.

Not only completely inaccurate but also elitist snobbery. Such weak propaganda.

That is the reality detachment systemic in the movement. Zeus looks around downtown keene and sees a post apocyliptic fascist police state, He sees me as some one who has become so dependant on the matrix I would do any thing to protect it, he looks in the mirror an sees a freedom fighter.

Your delusions about my delusions are amusing but I’m afraid my view is a bit different than in your fantasies. I see you as a victim turned abuser. I see myself as just a man who wants to live peacefully without someone sticking their hands in my pocket or harming me if I refuse to pay their shakedown fees.

He and many others have taken Mr Rogers trolley into the neiborhood of make believe, I guess that would make Ian King Friday. come on guys, working model, not make pretend. Creating or re creating society would take grown ups.

Mr. Rogers would have been a decent neighbor. Why can’t you?

I don’t want to create or recreate society, I just want you and your ilk to follow the Golden Rule. Stop hitting people and trying to take their stuff and stop supporting people who do.

Oh what a extremist point of view that must be. “Whatever will we do if we can’t rob everyone to pay for the latest boondoggle?”.

End Game accuses Free Staters of being bums when your system is run by the biggest bums of all, parasites who feed on the wealth and labor of others. Maybe if your politicians and bureaucrats ever produced something with any value, they wouldn’t need to steal from everyone else to pay for it.

Comment by Ian

November 7, 2009 @ 11:28 am

Responding to Name(Required)’s post 84946:

What a brilliantly disguised group of adhominem attacks. I love you. I love that your free time is spent trolling on this website, because this movement is so important to you that you can’t find anything better to do with your life.

No one I know has ever suggested that what we’re doing involves the risk that Ghandi’s movement did. Luckily, people are not being slaughtered at this point. That said, they are being threatened, extorted, and kidnapped. That calls for civil disobedience, whether you like it or not. Stop hurting people, and the activists will melt back into the background of society.

How much capital did you have to invest at age 20?

That’s what I thought.

Just wait and see. The people with capital are coming. It just takes longer to move when you have a family and business. That’s why you see lots of young single men in this movement. They are more mobile, and have less to their name.

Patience.

Finally, there are plenty of working models that show that freedom and voluntary order works far better than threats and coercion.

Now then, I have a game of Magic the Gathering to get to.

Comment by Ian

November 7, 2009 @ 11:34 am

EG, do you believe I’m Zeus? Rest assured, I don’t play games and post under multiple names.

Aside from that, the last time I recall being angry was when my phone was stolen. My anger in that case was a mistake, and I got it under control and then chose forgiveness rather than anger.

Thanks for caring.

Comment by Paul

November 7, 2009 @ 11:36 am

EG, and NR,

Why are you unable to interact with your neighbors without using aggressive violence? You, and those you support, literally extort money from your neighbors by threatening to steal their houses, or throw them in cages. You throw more innocent people in those cages not because they have harmed others, but simply because they have chosen to live in a way of which you do not approve. God forbid they would import orchids without your say-so, sell or buy a hot dog without begging your permission, or play a game of poker with their own money. God forbid they find the war in iraq, secret prisons, or any number of your other programs immoral, and so do not want to support them with their money.

You create euphemisms for yourself to hide the reality of your actions, but that is what they are. Your business model is that of Al Capone — you even enforce a monopoly on the sale of alcohol.

Why can’t you respect the rights of your neighbors to do as they wish with their lives and finances, as long as they don’t harm others? You do not own them, or their businesses, or their bodies, or their money.

Comment by END GAME

November 7, 2009 @ 3:06 pm

Live your life the way you want………just dont piss me off. pretty simple right, maybe we are not all that diffrent. Ian I know your not Zeus

Comment by xrazorwirex

November 7, 2009 @ 3:24 pm

“Live your life the way you want………just dont piss me off.”

Oh wow… how profound!

You guys piss me off but I’m not telling you how to live your lives; how about you just leave people the fuck alone?

Comment by Paul

November 7, 2009 @ 4:38 pm

EG,

Does not giving you money piss you off? Your goons extort money from me every year.

Comment by name(required)

November 7, 2009 @ 5:36 pm

Wow,

Firstly,Zeus

I do not discount comic books or graphic novels out of hand, as an art form or vehicle for powerful message. To the contrary, I actually own the origional V series as well as several other works of Alan Moore. The watchmen, when I got it in 7th grade is what inspired me to illustrate. The problem I have, and this applies equally to the stark imagery of Rands work, is the woefully black and white world view furvent followers tend to adopt after the piece inspires them. In the face of a critique on your lack of reality based ideology you played into my hands by childishly quoting such a source.
That ties in nicely to the 40 foot tall straw man Paul just placed in my front yard. I dont agree with the way your group operates, so I am automaticly directly responsible for what you see as demonstorably wrong with the world. Paul, if you think theft,coercion and violence exist largely within the vaccume of what you see as the government, you haven’t been around very long or lack the curiosity to study human history. If you were to take away the safety nets and regulation that you see as the bad guy, The people who are in power now stay there, only with nothing to hold them back. Heres a little hint, they are not politicians. They are the India trading companies of our modern age. Do you really think that privatizing everything would affect them adversly? Do you think privatization of the very institutions you despise isn’t happening now? By the way, if you think that non violent idealism is a mechanism that has a serious influence on market trends please send me the data.

Lastly king friday.

It was not my intention to hide my ad-hominem attacks. I do however, resent the fact that you seem to represent yourself as above name calling. Lets not pretend that you have adopted some sort of higher state of being. My mom read The Sectet too, but I forgive you.
When I was twenty I moved far away for the first time, like many of your converts. I worked very hard and saved up enough money to live comfortably in a major city for 3 months. Once there I worked 3 jobs brining in enough money to thrive in my new environment. Sadly at 4:20 in the afternoon I was working, but managed to get high in my free time(what little there was).

No one who has any meaninfull buisiness or familial responsibility is comming. There isn’t much more I can say about that. The twenty year old male internet shut in, with nothing to lose and no responsibility is all you have to work with. That will end when they knock someone up by some miracle and end up working 3rd shift at the dildo factory.

cheers on the MTG comment. I did like that.

Comment by Ian

November 7, 2009 @ 6:06 pm

The Secret is pretty cheesy. Nice of you to forgive her for that.

I didn’t say I was above name calling. Just pointing yours out, is all.

Thing is, you are wrong with your predictions that no one with “meaninfull buisiness or familial responsibility is comming”. I know who at least a few of them are, and I can tell you they have families and businesses and are bringing both with them.

Comment by Zeus

November 7, 2009 @ 6:24 pm

The problem I have, and this applies equally to the stark imagery of Rands work, is the woefully black and white world view furvent followers tend to adopt after the piece inspires them. In the face of a critique on your lack of reality based ideology you played into my hands by childishly quoting such a source.

Where you see V for Vendetta as dystopian, I found it to be optimistic. In a future world that is only years away from becoming reality (considering that England has become more like the England of the film in the few years since it was released and street cameras monitor your every move), I found it refreshing that one man could make a difference by educating others and urging them to get off their asses and make a stand. In a truly dystopian vision, V would have been shot to death at the beginning of the movie and Evie would have been raped and murdered by the Fingermen, a far more realistic outcome.

You claim my philosophy is childish and the more I think about it, the more I think you may be right, albeit not in the way you would imagine.

Most of us learned the Golden Rule in kindergarten. It is a simple piece of logical wisdom. As we’ve gotten older, a certain number of people seem to forget it, particularly those that work for the state and who perpetrate harm and theft on others as if it were the most normal thing in the world. There’s your real detachment from reality: To think that an orderly society can only exist at the point of a gun. Clearly, it is you rather than I who possess a black and white vision of the world if you believe such a dystopian fantasy.

Not once have you explained how the Philosophy of Liberty — which I’m not yet convinced you’re familiar with — fails in its logic.

Again, all the majority of us want is for people (which includes your government employees) to interact with others in a consentual, voluntary manner. I find that to be far more grown-up than threatening people with violence and taking their stuff.

You are welcome to prove otherwise.

Comment by name(required)

November 7, 2009 @ 6:33 pm

Ian,

Than why point it out? You have, in many cases used the ad-hominem defence in an attempt to discount an opponent. If this is a tactic, which you yourself implement than I find it disingenous to call it out in an attempt to appear on higher ground.

Well, I wait with baited breath to see the next wave of financed adults who are moving here to engage in your brand of activism. For now I’ll just have to take your word for it. How well do you thing their company and family will thrive when they are seen on You Tube harassing lets say, a middle aged city clerk during working hours? I can see it now. “Toppless mother of three and insurance magnate arressted on town square.” Wait don’t tell me, these will be the behind the scenes financeers backing up the hard core activism this country needs to get on the right track. ding ding oh, hi lady Aberline have you seen Daniel Tiger?

Comment by xrazorwirex

November 7, 2009 @ 7:12 pm

I’m all about ad hominem attacks if they aren’t baseless; the problem with most people that use that tactic though is that they ONLY use that and never follow through on making logical points.

When someone attacks your tactics instead of your ideas then you can play the typical bullshit by whining about it and continuing the cycle or you can beat them with logic.

You can call people names, sure, but lets see you make some damn sense.

Why are you bothering to talk to us?
Why the hell should I listen to you?
What makes your methods of achieving freedom better than mine?

Go.

Comment by name(required)

November 7, 2009 @ 7:21 pm

Zeus,

Firstly, the series is a dystopia due to the back drop of the story not the underlying message.

The fundamental flaw you and your friends have is the misunderstanding that the enemy lives in a series of elaborate publicly erected buildings. The need to dominate and controll is a behavior inherant to the species. The house, the senate or Global Tricon are simply just different names for the tip of todays power structure. I am indeed familiar with your philosophy. It is as flawed as any thought procces that operates in dogmatic terms and ignores fundamental weak spots in the human condition. What needs to be explored in length, for your movement to be any thing other than a fringe extremist group, is just how fragile the network of human realationships are. “Im not hurting any one” is a completely subjective statement that can be directly refuted by any one who is being “hurt” by said actions or behavior. When you play things out, my methlab and your pre school cant exist on the same block no matter how good the private mediator is. Your system works on a small level, just like any other system with a small group of like minded individuals. Northern Main guys. Shit Ill donate

Please exuse any spelling errors, its Saterrday

Comment by name(required)

November 7, 2009 @ 7:50 pm

Little wire,

As Ian himself admonished me for, I was using “thinly veiled ad-hominems” I have, and never will cry no fair in my critique of your inane movement. The logic speaks for itself. There was plenty of substance and actual facts to snack on and chew. Others have come on here and just called you idiots,homeless and pussies. This is not the tact I have taken. In only 13 hours or so I have floated several ideas, most of which,, to the credit of your compatriots have been addressed directly. Please refute my last post and please use real data and historical refferances to defend your mind…… or don’t.

Comment by Zeus

November 7, 2009 @ 8:25 pm

The fundamental flaw you and your friends have is the misunderstanding that the enemy lives in a series of elaborate publicly erected buildings.

First, I have no enemies other than those who make themselves by enemies by aggressing against me, my friends and family i.e. those trying to murder, assault, defraud, kidnap, enslave, rape, steal, trespass or vandalize.

Secondly, I am under no such assumption that such people only live in elaborate buildings erected using stolen money. They can be anywhere and anyone. Most of those who work for the state, however, tend to fall into that category as part of their jobs. They get paid with stolen money to aggress against peaceful people.

The need to dominate and controll is a behavior inherant to the species.

I have no need to dominate anyone. I just want to live my life. I’m also a bit more optimistic that mankind isn’t just another dumb, savage animal and can rise above any such genetic instincts if they exist.

The house, the senate or Global Tricon are simply just different names for the tip of todays power structure.

What’s a Global Tricon? Sounds like conspiracy junk.

I am indeed familiar with your philosophy. It is as flawed as any thought procces that operates in dogmatic terms and ignores fundamental weak spots in the human condition.

Again, you say the philosophy is flawed by you don’t explain why. What are these weak spots in the human condition? That some people want to dominate others? Shouldn’t that be something we work to abolish rather than enhance by voting these pricks into office and giving them powers they were never meant to have and to make up laws and regulations at a whim that do nothing but cause harm?

What needs to be explored in length, for your movement to be any thing other than a fringe extremist group, is just how fragile the network of human realationships are. “Im not hurting any one” is a completely subjective statement that can be directly refuted by any one who is being “hurt” by said actions or behavior.

If you understand the Philosophy of Liberty, then you know it is anything but subjective. “I’m not hurting anyone” can be tested against the philosophy and either proven or disproven. It is completely objective.

The real crimes in this world boil down to murder, assault, rape, fraud, theft, vandalism, slavery, kidnap and trespass.

If you’re not violating another person or their property, you aren’t harming them.

When you play things out, my methlab and your pre school cant exist on the same block no matter how good the private mediator is.

How can your methlab harm my pre-school unless you’re trespassing onto my property and soliciting the students under my temporary guardianship?

And do you really think anyone in a free society would build a pre-school near a methlab or that parents and teachers would be brain-dead enough not to prepare for such a possibility and buy up the whole block? Do you not think someone will have an incentive to come up with a way to prevent such a situation or resolve it should it happen? I certainly believe that to be more likely than the need for government goons to go around shooting, kidnapping and taxing people.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

Your system works on a small level, just like any other system with a small group of like minded individuals. Northern Main guys. Shit Ill donate

And your system doesn’t work at all. Your politicians have spent more than what every man, woman and child in America earns over the course of a year ($14 Trillion as of 2008) and has indebted those same people with FIVE TIMES that (and they’re STILL borrowing and spending and causing you inflation).

They have pissed on your Constitution and written new laws to render it null and void and used scare tactics to fool you into going along with it. The country is falling apart as they exert more control and more fear over the populace and sooner rather than later the whole thing is going to collapse.

Stop relying on these idiots to save you. Save yourself. Stop feeding the broken machine. If you don’t like how we’re trying to do it, then lead by example and show us how its done.

Comment by name(required)

November 7, 2009 @ 9:13 pm

Zeus,

The convorsation can stop at the point where you don’t recognize the conflict between the meth lab and your pre school. The meth lab is built near the school for market reasons, not the other way around dummy. The amount of idiotic presumptions under your utopia are countless. Im not reffering to your need to dominate othrs but others who actually have power and influence to maintain it. Your rules only apply to the small group of people stupid enough to download your book on tape and move here because of it. Lack of government, as I said before, does not erase Power structure or its ability to control you. Try again. My system, ha ha simple little god on the imaginary mountain doesnt read words good…FAIL

Comment by name(required)

November 7, 2009 @ 9:23 pm

Oh, and for your stoic defence of the constitution, its hard to tell which of you respect the old documents and those of you who “never signed a contract with your government” hard to keep track of the spoiled idiocy of your lost movement.

Comment by xrazorwirex

November 7, 2009 @ 9:48 pm

“Please refute my last post and please use real data and historical refferances[sic] to defend your mind…… or don’t.”

Your entire ‘last post’ was based in assumptions that you know what my ideas are and a lot of the criticisms you brought are pretty baseless or don’t apply to me.

I want to know your genius idea that’s gonna make it so I don’t have to get forced by some violent gang to pay them extortion money if I want to live somewhere or have a job or trade goods or own a dog or drive a car on roads that I helped pay for.

I’m gonna have to say that you’re falling into that aforementioned category of people that actually don’t spend much time talking about topics of actual substance and fall back on nonsense and name calling to make themselves feel justified. I mean, the first word in the first post directed at me was already ad hominem bullshit and didn’t answer any of my questions or contain any substance…

What’s your purpose for talking to anyone here?

You don’t seem interested in anyone’s ideas because you came with preconceived notions and think you understand everything already and you aren’t providing much of an alternative means for bringing ‘liberty in our lifetimes’, which is the stated overall goal of everyone who is involved in this group. Why do you bother?

Do you want everyone to just shut up and be a slave?

Do you just hate people?

Are you a troll?

What?

Comment by Zeus

November 7, 2009 @ 10:00 pm

The meth lab is built near the school for market reasons, not the other way around dummy. The amount of idiotic presumptions under your utopia are countless.

You mean like the idiotic presumption that pre-schoolers can afford meth and are thus the intended market target for drug pushers? 5 year-olds don’t have any money, “dummy”.

Im not reffering to your need to dominate othrs but others who actually have power and influence to maintain it. Your rules only apply to the small group of people stupid enough to download your book on tape and move here because of it. My system, ha ha simple little god on the imaginary mountain doesnt read words good…FAIL

Maybe if you spoke fluent English I’d understand what the fuck you’re talking about.

1. We don’t have any books on tape.
2. Nobody uses tape anymore. We use CD’s. Welcome to the 21st century.
3. As for “others who actually have power and influence to maintain it”, I can only guess you’re trying to say something about how government is just a bunch of people willing to use assault, murder and threats to get their way and to control others, in which I would agree.

Lack of government, as I said before, does not erase Power structure or its ability to control you. Try again.

Government is a just an organized group of parasites preying on the wealth and labor of others, not unlike the mafia or the Crips and Bloods. Take away their illusion of legitimacy and that’s all they are.

You + words = EPIC FAIL.

Comment by paul

November 8, 2009 @ 8:09 am

I dont agree with the way your group operates, so I am automaticly directly responsible for what you see as demonstorably wrong with the world.

You support it, and so, you are morally responsible for it — especially since it is being perpetrated by an organization which is quite dependent on popular support. Or, have I misjudged you? Do you oppose the acts I described?

If you oppose government coersion, but simply do not agree with the methods of activism used here, then you are right that what I said does not apply.

Paul, if you think theft,coercion and violence exist largely within the vaccume of what you see as the government, you haven’t been around very long

I fully agree that coersion and violence exist outside of government. I oppose murder, theft, etc, by non-governmental people as well. Trust me, if you were defending ted bundy, I’d come down on you just as hard. As it is, you are supporting the goons with badges.

or lack the curiosity to study human history.

Actually, history shows the most major atrocities are committed by governments. More than 150 million were killed by their own governments in the 20th century alone, and that’s not counting wars.

If you were to take away the safety nets and regulation that you see as the bad guy, The people who are in power now stay there, only with nothing to hold them back.

I support rules — legitimate rules based on natural law. For example, rules against harming other people or their property, and rules that an owner places over the use of their property.

I oppose arbitrary rules, by which bureacurats and politicians violate the rights of others. I am not supporting the abolition of rules, I am saying that they should be applied equally, to all people.

Currently, we have a political class which is permitted to commit blatenly immoral acts which would be clearly unacceptable for anyone else.

Great reform, through history, comes when we broaden moral principles to include people and situations to which they had not formerly been applied. Principled opposition to slavery, for example, was based on the recognition that the word “men” in “all men are created equal and endowed with certain unalienable rights, among them … liberty” cannot just mean white menOther examples include the delcaration of independence itself, and the bill of rights, which had been formed based on just such an expansion of the application of moral principle, from nobility to commoners, and much later, to blacks and women. Each of these changes, in their turn, appeared to be drastic and unprecidented.

It’s time to apply basic moral principles to the behavior of “government”.

Heres a little hint, they are not politicians. They are the India trading companies of our modern age. Do you really think that privatizing everything would affect them adversly? Do you think privatization of the very institutions you despise isn’t happening now?

Corpratism is what is happening now, where big government gets in bed with big business, at the expense of everyone else. What I oppose is agressive violence. Currently, the largest perpetrator of agressive violence right now is government, but I promise you I will oppose it wherever it is found. If a business descided to start extorting money from people, I would try to convince people to stand against them as well.

And, were you to support their theft, I would come down on you just as hard. As I say though, you’re currently supporting the agressive violence of the gang with badges, so that’s what I’ll call you out on.

By the way, if you think that non violent idealism is a mechanism that has a serious influence on market trends please send me the data.

I find that most people tend to be decent in their private lives. Most people, who don’t think twice about voting for socialism, would never personally break into their neighbor’s house, pawn his tv set, and use the money to buy stuff they want.

It is this illusion of legitimacy that needs to go. Both acts are theft, one is just being committed by a larger gang. Yes, there will always be criminals out there who have no compunction about harming other people. We will have to defend against those people, as we do now.

The problem now, however, is not that people have completely abandoned moral principles — as I say, at least 99% of most people’s interactions with others are voluntary, and non-agressive. The problem is that people have created moral exceptions for their actions in particular circumstances.

It’s the same way slavery lasted so long, even among people who supposedly believed all men are created equal and endowed by their creator with the unalienable right to liberty. “Well, blacks don’t apply”. Or, the same reason, at an earlier time, that the rights of commoners were not respected. “Laymen cannot own property”, etc.

No, we are ALL endowed by our creator with the right to own our lives and the fruits of our labor, and there are no exceptions to rules for basic human decency for those with shiny badges and popular support.

Comment by ELKFARTtheTROLLSLAYER

November 23, 2009 @ 10:40 pm

wish i’d gotten to this sooner. I’m proud of you guys. i think you won the above debate handily.—->///—>NAME(REQUIRED) wrote: Im not reffering to your need to dominate othrs but others who actually have power and influence to maintain it. Your rules only apply to the small group of people stupid enough to download your book on tape and move here because of it. My system, ha ha simple little god on the imaginary mountain doesnt read words good…FAIL…I think that NR is here acknowledging that it’s not his system, it’s *their* system. NR just happens to go along with it. Do i have that right???…Eventually, everything changes….what will your precious little “gov’t” look like, *AFTER* it changes, NR???…

Comment by ihavehadenough

November 24, 2009 @ 7:06 am

WHat if the meth lab blew up – like they have been known to do – and spreads toxic fumes and waste that affects those little children……

Comment by Paul

November 24, 2009 @ 8:26 am

I don’t know what conversation you’re referring to, I have.

But if a person blows up a meth lab and harms children, they should be working to pay those kids restitution, and if it’s very serious harm, probably for the rest of their life. Their assets should be used for that purpose as well.

Comment by ihavehadenough

November 24, 2009 @ 8:53 am

How about using a little basic fucking common sense in your ridiculous utopian dream society! Enforce a ban on meth labs!!! They are dangerous, breed thieving junkies and contribute nothing to the common good. You guys are so fucked!

Comment by Zeus

November 24, 2009 @ 8:54 am

No no, Paul. Since we have to protect everyone from everything imaginable, we need to hunt down every possible meth-maker, kidnap them at gunpoint and lock them away in a cage because, you know, they *might* blow up their lab and hurt someone. As long as the possibility exists that someone can be hurt or offended in this country, it is our patriotic duty to do everything in our power through the government apparatus to prevent those things happening to anyone ever again. So we must tax and invade and torture in order to protect life, liberty and property. It’s the American Way.

And besides, trying to control the behavior and thinking of 350 million Americans (and all them foreigners out there trying to kill or enslave us) isn’t a Utopian fantasy like your silly “Let’s just stop hurting people and respect property rights” mantra. Such silly nonsense. We just need the right politicians in office to throw the right amount of money at every problem this country faces. Then a new Golden Age will dawn.

Comment by END GAME

November 24, 2009 @ 8:56 am

You guys are unreal

Comment by ihavehadenough

November 24, 2009 @ 9:04 am

Better idea….hunt down the meth heads, line them up with the 420 addicts and have a good old firing squad!

Comment by Zeus

November 24, 2009 @ 9:41 am

Its always amusing when the statists suggest solving problems with mass murder.

Comment by ihavehadenough

November 24, 2009 @ 9:52 am

Almost as amusing when the FS’ers advocate dangerous drug use and the associated violent crime that will always go with it. Meth heads are not exactly peaceful people and their product is highly toxic and its byproducts linger for years.

Comment by Paul

November 24, 2009 @ 9:58 am

Man, forget meth labs, do you know how many people die because of obesity and heart disease every year? Serving big macs should be a capitol offense — firing squad style, just like IHave suggests. Everyone should only be able to eat foods of which I approve. I will hire goons to bludgeon or cage anyone who eats an unapproved food, for their own good. People who want their foods approved can hire lobbyists to take me to fancy dinners, or contribute to my reelection campaign. Oh, but the mcchicken is ok, because it’s damn tasty.

Then, there’s those crazy people who drive cars, which kill tens of thousands each year. It would be pure recklessness to go on a joy ride, but I admit that some driving purposes might have a net benefit as determined by me, grand dictator of all decisions, and sole proprietor of good sense. For example, going to see bon jovi? Heck no. Definitely no public good. But, if you’re driving to see Radiohead, well, that does improve public musical awareness, so I might just have to approve that. I guess it all comes down to how many bon jovi brings to my fundraising dinner next month. Oh, and driving to see the fall foliage? Definitely out. Talk a walk you obese mofo, and stop risking my health with your death machine.

Also, there’s alcohol, which leads to far more abuse and injury than all other drugs put together. But then, I like sam adams and scotch, so I guess that can stay legal. Maybe I’ll outlaw vodka. What kind of reprobate drinks vodka? It’s practically flavorless.

Oh, and I’ll be sending my goons around to extract money from you on a semi-annual basis as well. How else do you think I’m going to pay for all this? They can check whether the artwork on your wall contributes to the public good or not, while they’re there. Hint: Cubism causes seizures, I’m pretty sure. Plus the French considered Picasso an enemy of the state. Don’t even try it.

Then, there’s always the facade of your house. We all know that salmon and sky blue contribute nothing to the public good, and cause weakness of intestinal fortitude. Puse, and vermillion, and eggplant will be allowed. The same rules go for clothing. Hats should be fedoras, which suggest taste, which benefits the public good. Baseball caps should never be worn backwards, or contain a yankees logo. I will be coming up with a full list of approved clothing later. See that you are not caught with unapproved color combinations, or my goons will extract more money from you, or lock you in my cage.

You would have brought it on yourself after all, the rules are plain as day.

Caffeine will be handed out by special request. Drinking it recklessly could lead to insomnia, which harms us all, but then, there are some cases where important tasks must be completed.

A five o’clock jog will be required for all, as we are all forced to cover the cost of health care for unhealthy persons. Short shorts will not be allowed, as they could cause accidents. Take care that you are not ticketed for excessive cheerfulness before 7 am however, as we all know how much that pisses people with hangovers off, and could lead to acts of violence.

Basically, if my goon squad demands money or obedience from you for anything at all, just give it to them. You may think it’s not a law, but I guarantee it’s in there somewhere, or something somewhat like it is. Plus, the goons work for me, and I’m the one interpreting the law.

You may think the goons are being intrusive, or don’t let you keep enough of your money, or spend that money on things you don’t approve of, like “murder”, “assault”, “extortion”, or “kidnapping”, but just remember, it’s for the public good, as defined by me. These things are only immoral when done by lesser mortals, who are incapable of making their own decisions, let alone everyone else’s, as I do.

I do want to hear more about breed thieving, though, Ihave, how exactly does that work? I consider you the resident expert on organized theft here, so perhaps you can fill me in. Do you steal rare shiatsus or somesuch, or do you just mean that you do your best to eradicate the breed of independent, liberty loving, self responsible individuals that originally made this country great?

Comment by Paul

November 24, 2009 @ 10:14 am

Oh, and here’s a radical, earthshaking thought for all you rabid drug warriors: Maybe if you didn’t outlaw the manufacture of drugs, they wouldn’t be made in enclosed residential areas by teenagers with chemistry sets. Maybe they’d be made the same way aspirin, and other drugs are: In safe industrial environments by professionals.

Looks like those kids are yet more victims of your inhuman drug war, which finances terrorists, gang wars, and cartels everywhere.

The drug war: Because we were too damn stupid to pay attention during alcohol prohibition.

Comment by ihavehadenough

November 24, 2009 @ 10:41 am

So, when one of those freaked out meth heads with rotting teeth and fried nerves kills a passerby because of a paranoid delusion….do you fix his teeth and give him treatment before or after he makes “restitution” to the grieving family

Comment by name(required)

November 24, 2009 @ 11:21 am

Paul,

What happened to you? You sound different. I may not have agreed with you, but I enjoyed the conversation. You sound irratic and unstable now.. Whats going on? Ranting wasn’t your style. Are you alright?

Comment by Paul

November 24, 2009 @ 11:22 am

You’d be free to donate charitably towards anyone’s dental and medical care you like, because, *gasp*, it’s your money. I know it’s a shocking idea. For murder, he’d likely be making restitution for the rest of his life, however, so there’s no “after”.

Comment by Paul

November 24, 2009 @ 11:39 am

It’s called parody, NR. If you’re in the mood for substantive thought, I’d welcome a continuation of our discussion, and a response to my latest post, which may be found here: http://freekeene.com/2009/11/07/join-us-for-social-sundays-now-3pm-at-mccues/comment-page-1/.

Oh, and by the way, will you be allowing the meth labs to move to a secure, industrial environment, to be produced by professionals, rather than gangs, or is the continuation of your insane war on drugs more important to you than children’s safety?

Comment by Ian

November 24, 2009 @ 12:06 pm

This is what Meth looks like when made in the legal market:
http://www.lundbeckinc.com/USA/products/CNS/desoxyn/default.asp (yes, Lundbeck manufactures legal meth.) It’s manufactured under safe laboratory conditions.

Ending prohibition will end the violence associated with the drug trade, just like it did when alcohol prohibition ended.

Comment by name(required)

November 24, 2009 @ 12:15 pm

Paul,

Im well aware of what parody is. In the hands of clever people who actually have a sense of humor it can be A highly effective device. In the hands of the humorless idealistic zelot it merely comes off as insane ranting. You seem more frustrated as you continue to post. Scoffing sarcasm has snuck its way into your exchanges. The measured tone is fading away. There appears to be a bitterness that wasn’t there before. Im just curious.

Comment by Zeus

November 24, 2009 @ 1:59 pm

…it merely comes off as insane ranting.

Considering he was parodying the kind of dreck that comes out of most statists mouths, I agree wholeheartedly. Their calls for violence against and control over others does indeed come off as insane ranting.

Now you know what we see when they do it to us.

Comment by Paul

November 24, 2009 @ 2:50 pm

The disturbing thing is how difficult it is to exaggerate. We already have government required approval for house color schemes, foods, flower purchases, etc. I’m sorry you didn’t find my post humorous — perhaps it was a bit off, as I’ve been up late nights working on my term paper — but my intent was to illustrate the absurdity and arrogance of proclaiming oneself the arbitor of “public good”, and attepting to control the behavior of others to your own chosen ends.

Everything I said is a logical extention of the busybody government we have today, and is justified by the same logic used to excuse its current actions. If it is appropriate for me to dictate to a person what color they may paint their home, why not their clothes? I have to look at both, after all. If we’re going to suppose that we have a right to dictate that a person buy health insurance, because we are going to be “forced” to help them if they get sick, why not dictate to them what they can and cannot eat, or that they must jog? Local governments have already justified bans on trans-fats using these very grounds. Cars are extremely dangerous. Why not dictate for what purposes they may be used? We already have the notion in this country that police and bureacurats must be obeyed without question, and certainly “lawful” excuses are found to cover practically all of their actions, no matter how abusive.

The idea of thereatening violence against all those who choose to act in a way of which you do not personally approve, or believe serves your definition of “common good”, is tyrannical and absurd. They have a right to make their own decisions about their person and property — you do not own either.

An unimbellished description of the nanny statism we live in today would seem to be an unbelievable parody to anyone living in this country a hundred years ago, let alone two hundred. If we continue on our present course, what I describe may seem tame.

And yes, nanny statists sounds exactly this silly to me.

Oh, and how about that drug war? Are you still going to force meth to be made with secret labs, by criminals, in residental areas? Of course, if you really are a friend to the gangs, you could go in the other direction. Many currently legal drugs are also dangerous to manufacture. Perhaps you could outlaw asprin, and see what mayham the gangs could cause trying to manufacture that in their basements. I bet they’d get more money, which seems to be the main accomplishment of the drug war.

During alcohol prohibition there were many distillery explosions and fires, perhaps we could bring alcohol prohbition back and start enjoying those as well. Bad whiskey also commonly caused blindness, brain damage, or death during prohibition, since it was made by bootleggers, much as bad drugs are and do today.