Free Keene

Comment by Zeus

November 7, 2009 @ 6:59 pm

Seems like a nice place. Did anyone check with management to make sure Free Keeners are welcome there? I’d hate for any Keene establishment to be violated by unwelcome guests and the disruptive money they’re likely to bring with them.

Comment by Ian

November 7, 2009 @ 7:05 pm

Ownership was contacted, yes.

Comment by Jasmine

November 7, 2009 @ 8:20 pm

This is hilarious. For all you out-of-towners who think Free Keeners are making a positive impact in town and changing hearts and minds….the last location went so far as to post in the local paper that they do not want to be associated with a political message and you are not welcomed there. You have changed hearts and minds, but certainly not in a positive way that welcomes more liberty-lovers to town.

I guess that isn’t something you would want to advertise on this website, though…

Comment by Jasmine

November 7, 2009 @ 8:28 pm

And seriously, why would you bring your child to a bar?? Gotta love the propaganda…the nice family with two young girls playing pool at the local bar. This isn’t exactly a fair representation of McCue’s.

Comment by Zeus

November 7, 2009 @ 8:36 pm

Jasmine, Post 1: Great, then that means you get to laugh at some of the only people trying to do something to stop this whole country from going down the toilet. What a victory that must be for you.

Jasmine, Post 2: It’s from their own website. Try doing some basic research like clicking a link next time before spouting off about propaganda.

Comment by name(required)

November 7, 2009 @ 10:06 pm

Ian,

Like how you posted the last venue as “too small” as opposed to shut the fuck down by the owner. Mcues has a zero freeloader policy by the way. No tiki no laundry my friend. First little bastard ordering water, garnish and no booze will be turned out first thing. If you were part of the community you would know that of course. Learning curve is a bitch. good luck.

Comment by Ian

November 7, 2009 @ 10:13 pm

Actually, you can check the forum thread. Discussion on moving to McCue’s started well before Jessica’s letter.

Plus I told McCue’s owner that he can expect 75-80% of the Social Sundays crowd to buy something. I think the number may be higher, but I’ve never done an exact study. He seemed fine with that. If one person buys a pizza and the other three people eating it didn’t buy it, they will not be kicked out. Thanks for the well wishes.

McCue’s is slow on Sundays, so they are welcoming the business. Fritz WAS too busy, and I don’t want to burden a business and get in the way of other customers. I’d like to keep eating at Fritz and if the owner ever calls me back I’m sure we can smooth over the misunderstanding. Hopefully she’ll at least read my letter to the editor in the Sentinel. (Presuming the publish it, which they likely will.)

Comment by Vince

November 7, 2009 @ 10:25 pm

“Ian,

Like how you posted the last venue as “too small” as opposed to shut the fuck down by the owner. Mcues has a zero freeloader policy by the way. No tiki no laundry my friend. First little bastard ordering water, garnish and no booze will be turned out first thing. If you were part of the community you would know that of course. Learning curve is a bitch. good luck.”

Wow, you are an angry person, aren’t you?

Comment by name(required)

November 7, 2009 @ 10:53 pm

I hate my life.

Comment by Anton Lee

November 7, 2009 @ 11:17 pm

there used to be a bar out on the seacoast that openly told gays they weren’t allowed because of all the active pro-gay marriage activism that was going on. They had to keep changing venues too, some of them even went so far as to hang out in a bar with their friends and only order soda. The audacity!

That’s pretty much what jasmine and name(required) are pointing out. They’re only informing us that certain people are bigoted based on misinformation, information, or just plain old hatred. That’s fine and dandy, this is the free market at work. I don’t regularly visit Keene, but if I did why would I go to Fritz? They’ve just explained that they’re not interested in having peaceful activists eat at their establishment on Sundays.

Perfect! I like it when business owners come out and let us know how they feel on certain issues. That way I can take that into account when it’s time to get some grub.

Good for Fritz, good for Free Keene, good for everyone!

Comment by thinkliberty

November 8, 2009 @ 12:09 am

I know to never to eat at Fritz again when I am in Keene.

Comment by Chris

November 8, 2009 @ 7:09 am

McCue’s certainly is a family establishment. They even have it divided into two parts; a family side (under 21) and an adult side (over 21). Of course, on Friday and Saturday nights they kick all the under 21s out but that won’t be a problem for Social Sundays.

I’d also like to point out that people who agree with the Free Keener’s, for lack of a better term, don’t tend to come here and post vitriolic comments condemning them. And I don’t think that one business owner (Jess Graveline, an old friend of mine) is indicative of the entire public’s sentiment. Besides this movement isn’t about the collective but rather, the individual and his rights bestowed on him by nature.

When Jess’ establishment was located at the Center at Keene, we used to party in there until 4 or 5 AM until the very people she’s supporting in this instance, threatened to pull her liquor license. How ironic.

I’m a Keene native, who’s since moved away from the town(New Hampshire’s marxist haven)and I absolutely love this movement. Keene’s thieving public servants and the minions that support them have gotten precisely what they deserve in this wonderful irony.

It’s the FSPers that have persuaded me to return to my home state(though I won’t be back to Keene)in order to work toward liberty.

God Bless the Free State Project and it’s participants.

Comment by Chris

November 8, 2009 @ 7:32 am

In fact, I’m closing on my new house in NH on Nov 16. I bought it with capital that I’m moving into the state. I also patronized a local Realtor, a local bank and many local hardware and building suppliers.

And I own several Ruger firearms.

Comment by Puke

November 8, 2009 @ 11:46 am

How dare 20-30 people patronize a business on a slow Sunday afternoon!

I hope all you Free Keeners drown in a pile of pig feces!
Now I’m off to praise Jebus!

Comment by xrazorwirex

November 8, 2009 @ 11:55 am

Don’t forget to damn those evil towel heads or dem’ dirty brown people to the south that r TAKN’ ERRR JAWBS!!

Comment by Zeus

November 8, 2009 @ 12:44 pm

TEKKEN UR JIBS!

Comment by Puke

November 8, 2009 @ 1:42 pm

DERK DUK JEEERBS!!

Comment by bil

November 8, 2009 @ 5:38 pm

That got confusing fast.As for myself,i will continue to patronize both places. —bil [edited to remove what firepower I own.]

Comment by AnAmazedReader

November 9, 2009 @ 10:25 am

Social Sundays Moves to Hannaford’s Parking Lot, Starting 11/1, Now at 2pm!

Filed under: Desperate, ADHD, Failure, Medication — Bad 60s-era DJ Wannabe at 2:42 pm on Monrday, November 9, 2009

Keene’s weekly all-ages social gathering of emotionally-disturbed people is moving to the parking lot at Hannaford’s on West Street! It’s still happening on Sundays but is now starting at a new time of 2pm, as we seek to avoid any proximity between the nightly rise of the moon and the neural pathways of our members.

Why another change so soon? Because uh, so many people are so, uh, impressed with our behavior and accomplishments that we need a place big enough for them to join us! Yeah, that’s the ticket! Sure, we’ve had so much success that actually renting a space ourselves would be no problem at all, but we’ve become such a treasured part of the community that we’re obligated to, uh, make ourselves as accessible to the public as possible. We want an open event that people don’t have to pay to enter. Yeah, that’s it!

Hopefully this will be the last time the event will need to be moved for a while. Some people have expressed confusion as to where and when Social Sundays is being held. Liberty lovers, take heart; this is what happens when you’re so incredibly successful at convincing your neighbors that your ideas are useful and important! And what better indication of our popularity could there be than having to move our Sunday events six times over the past three years! So many people love us that its difficult to meet their pleas that we frequent their establishments. Hearing restauranteurs say things like

“I don’t want to have anything to do with those people”

“I am opposed to political groups using my restaurant as a place to organize and solicit new members, especially without my approval.”

“Cheap, filthy bastards”.

truly brings the reality home: we’re SPECIAL.

Hannaford’s lot certainly fits the bill for a large social gathering. We’ll be able to mill about and visit with other people who don’t want us near them, or just stand around and mess up traffic. Plus, with no waitstaff, costs are kept low for those who simply want to sit around and yell at imagined oppressors, and there aren’t servers to get upset about ideologically-entitled vagrants who decide not to order or are taking too long to leave the table. Sundays are still a good day for us to get together socially, as it gives life to the meager pretense that we’re significantly employed during the rest of the week.

So come and join us. Thrill to the incomparable excitement of Paul asking a patron properly using a handicapped parking space if they would have thought slavery was legitimate in 1840 simply because it too was “the law”, or Sam screaming across the lot at a middle-aged woman who reminds him of a meter-maid he once met, or Zeus waxing nostalgic for the good-old days when people were free to live in abject multi-generational poverty, or Kurt yelling “Who Ordered the Veal Cutlet?”, or Ian walking up to total strangers and saying to them “I forgive you”. It’s Anti- Social Sundays, starting at 2pm in the beautiful Hannaford’s parking lot on West Street in Keene. See you there!

FreeKeene.com: “We’re coming apart at the seams”.

Comment by Zeus

November 9, 2009 @ 10:57 am

I actually found that quite amusing. That you spent so much time on it is almost endearing. Almost.

Comment by xrazorwirex

November 9, 2009 @ 11:32 am

LOL; was this a collaborative effort with you and the rest of the town that you think you represent or did you just waste your pre-lunch break on that?

Or maybe this IS your job, an anti-activist. That would be flattering AND validative….

Comment by END GAME

November 9, 2009 @ 11:43 am

Ann,

Funniest damn thing I read all day…So very close to the truth.

Comment by Paul

November 9, 2009 @ 12:20 pm

Cute, amazed. Now, when you’re done with the childishness, and somehow obtain some intellectual honesty or courage, let me know when you’re ready to stop mugging your neighbors to pay for your misguided and corrupt programs. Or, at least, answer my questions here: http://freekeene.com/2009/08/14/courtroom-disobedience-frightens-fellow-slave/

EG, you’d be welcome to answer them also. You know, if you feel like having a real conversation about ideas instead of throwing spitballs.

Comment by thinkliberty

November 9, 2009 @ 12:49 pm

Ann,

At least the free keene folks are not collecting money at gun point and kicking people out of their houses for failure to pay like the political activists that believe in statism.

You can meet the violent cheap statist bastards at city hall, they gather there almost every weekday.

Comment by Zeus

November 9, 2009 @ 1:07 pm

Hey, hey, hey, fellas. This isn’t about facts or morality, philosophy or ideology or any of that. This is about Ann making a funny by misrepresenting freedom activists as stereotypical neo-hippies, losers and freaks because it makes her and her kind feel better about themselves and their broken system.

The last laugh will be on her in the coming months and years as the federal government crumbles under its own corrupt mismanagement and blundering just like the old Soviet Union did.

There’s no coming back from $70+ Trillion in obligations. She and her fellow state-worshiping brethren are good and fisted.

Hahahahahahahaha!

Comment by AnAmazedReader

November 9, 2009 @ 2:04 pm

Possible New Locations for Anti-Social Sundays!!

Somalia
Yemen
Northwest Pakistan
Zimbabwe
South Ossetia
Trans-Dniester
Nagorno-Karabakh
Abkhazia
Oakland………….

Just think of it: being able to conviviate and confabulate away from the crushing hand of government, free to enjoy the peaceful splendor of an existence characterized by random and unchecked violence at the hands of whatever warlord, gang or maniac comes along. Because folks like that are really into respecting private property, mediation and arbitration. SO much less oppressive than the Keene PD and City Council. And yes, democratically-elected representatives making laws are absolutely equivalent to the Crips, the Bloods, the Pashtoons, Los Zetas, etc.

FreeKeene.com: “Why can’t Keene be more like the Congo?”

Comment by Paul

November 9, 2009 @ 2:24 pm

Amazed,

No one supports violence by random individuals, or suggests that we should not organize to defend ourselves against them. Don’t even try to pretend that the only way to accomplish such organization is through government as we know it.

We both oppose violence by individuals, but the problem is, you appear to support aggressive violence when it is perpetrated by those in government. You make exceptions to basic moral principles to excuse their behavior.

The government is very much like the mob. It demands tribute, monopolizes particular industries, requires businesses to seek permission before operating in its territory, etc. The largest difference, as you note, is that its leaders are elected democratically. But, popular opinion does not define morality. The fact that two muggers in an ally vote to steal the wallet of their one victim does not make the act moral. That principle does not change with scale. The fact that 50 million muggers voted to take the wallets of 40 million victims (as well as that of those who did not vote) does not make their act moral either.

The problem with the mafia is not that it did not enjoy enough popular support, it is that it used violence against innocent people to extract money from them — something the government does constantly.

You attack these straw men, create false dichotomies, and launch personal insults, but you have no self-consistant belief system. If you were intellectually honest, you would honestly answer my questions, and we could have a discussion about our various philosophies of morality and government.

You won’t have an honest discussion, because fundamentally, you know your position is untenable. You have to bury the blatant immorality and illogic of what you support in piles of B.S, straw, and vitriol, lest they be subjected to rational and sober analysis.

Comment by Zeus

November 9, 2009 @ 2:38 pm

…democratically-elected representatives making laws are absolutely equivalent to the Crips, the Bloods, the Pashtoons, Los Zetas, etc.

Translation: “…mob-chosen henchmen making rules bought and paid for by lobbyists are absolutely equivalent to [other gangs]“.

You’ve almost got the hang of it, Ann, except that governments are worse. They can kill, assault, enslave, and steal with abandon and get away with it. After all, they have all the best weapons and the legitimacy of being chosen by the majority of a minority (voters).

At least with the street gangs, you can defend yourself from them when they attack you. Plus, they’re honest about what they’re doing; they don’t dress it up in bullshit. Try defending yourself in any way from a government goon and you’ll either be stuck in a cage for a couple decades or murdered for resisting. Worse, others will stand there and do nothing, either believing the bullshit or being too frightened of the truth to do anything about it as they drag you away.

Your vote-mob doesn’t have a right to my body, my labor or my wealth, no matter how many of you there are or whatever use they think is best for it.

I am a free man, god dammit. Take your hands out of my pocket and stop being the parasite you so desperately claim to hate.

Comment by TROLLZZ

November 9, 2009 @ 2:42 pm

U GUYZ R TEH DUMBZ!!

LOLZEEEZZZZ

AMERRIICKKAAA!!
FUCK YEAH!!

Comment by EdanMilner

November 9, 2009 @ 6:54 pm

I do not exaggerate when I say it literally hurts my heart to see such intolerance from the people of Keene. If any other group, even one far more threatening than the peaceful Free Keeners, were treated in this manner, there would be such an outcry from the public.

Comment by name(required)

November 10, 2009 @ 8:59 am

Firstly,

Ann,

That was wonderful. It made my morning, before I have to go off to a long day of hard, lucrative work….sorry guys that was an inside thing between people who have actual adult responsibility..

Edanmilner makes an interesting point. Why do you think that is Edan? Why would this group not elicit empathy from the public…??? Strange…home work assignment Edan: figure out the incomoprehensible disconnect between the general public and our brave freedom fighters. This simply does not add up. They have given so much to our community. Who can forget Jesse Maloneys brave flag burning in front of a deployed Veterans family or Ians inane tyrade to a middle aged PTA mom city clerk, as he wasted the day for local citizens?. Let us not forget Sams recent near fatal injury he sustained by the assault from a 60 year old female guard at the courthouse. These brave men and topless women deserve nothing but the respect they have bled for. We are talking about brothers and sisters who have the clarity to look past things like Darfur and child starvation and find the real injustice; un enforced ordinance prohibiting vagrants from publicly smoking pot on week days during working hours. You get to the bottom of this and get back to me this Sunday @ 2 at the Hannafords Parking lot.

Comment by Martes

November 10, 2009 @ 9:36 am

I heard the Free Keeners/Staters will be looking for a new venue for their Social Sunday meeting on the 15th. I guess McCues doesn’t want you either. Let Freedom ring!

Comment by Ian

November 10, 2009 @ 10:53 am

I love how you critics deign to speak for the “general public”, as though you have a finger on the pulse of all of Keene.

Sure, some people are upset, but some people love what is being done here. You can’t please everyone, and I won’t bother trying.

I’d like to thank you for spending some of your free time with us here at Free Keene. Maybe someday you’ll develop some compassion and start to give a damn about all the oppression going on around you.

Comment by Paul

November 10, 2009 @ 11:03 am

Name(Required), is your disagreement with the principles of liberty, and the goals of the movement, or with its methods?

If the former, I would like you to answer the questions I put to amazed here: http://freekeene.com/2009/08/14/courtroom-disobedience-frightens-fellow-slave/#comments, which still haven’t been answered. If you do believe in liberty, but disagree with the tactics used here, I’d like to know what tactics you do support, and what efforts you’re going to be involved in to those ends.

Assuming the former is the case, here are a couple of those questions we can start with.

(1a). Do you believe certain laws can be unjust or immoral?
(1b). If the answer to 1a is yes, do you believe these unjust or immoral laws should still be obeyed?
(1c). If the answer to 1b is yes, would you have obeyed laws forcing escaped slaves to be sent back to plantations, in 1840, for example?
(2). Suppose at the creation of the world I find myself living near two other people. Now, suppose myself, and my first neighbor, wish to steal from the other. My second neighbor simply wishes to live in peace. My first neighbor and I hold a “constitutional convention”, and determine by two thirds majority, that we will have a democracy. We then vote to steal from our neighbor, and the motion passes by two thirds majority, which of course is binding, since we have already determined that we shall live in a democracy. It’s now the law that we shall take the property of our neighbor, and since there are two of us and one of him, overwhelm him by force and do so immediately. Or, of course, we could give him a chance to leave, at which point we get his farm anyway.

Do you believe this scenario is any different, or more moral, than common theft?

Comment by Ian

November 10, 2009 @ 11:07 am

I appreciate your diligence in attempting to get answers, but I think the continued silence just proves that he’s nothing more than a troll. Perhaps he’ll prove me wrong and actually give a substantive reply to you.

Comment by Lpviper

November 10, 2009 @ 11:39 am

Now that IS funny.

Hey Ann, real quick, 25 words or less;

Why do you read FreeKeene.com?

lolzes

Comment by xrazorwirex

November 10, 2009 @ 11:44 am

They obviously have plenty of time during “work hours” to be lurking the forum and posting inane trollings here; it makes me wonder how relevant these trollers are.

Are they old, bitter people in retirement homes that don’t have anything better to do?

Are they bureaucrats that are actually at work, but since they’re bureaucrats they only do a few hours of actual work a day and spend the rest of their time on the internet?

Are they freelance professionals that have free time to lurk around for a few hours a day (LOL, RIGHT!)?

Maybe they don’t work regular hours because they work in fast food and were raised with dogmas that make them feel inadequate because of it, so they pretend to be ‘professional, working adults’ and live their fantasy online?

I guess we’ll never know….

Comment by xrazorwirex

November 10, 2009 @ 11:45 am

“Why do you read FreeKeene.com?”

I don’t know how many time’s I’ve asked the trolls / lurkers why they’re here to simply go unnoticed for a few posts then get called a name and left at that…..

Comment by End Game

November 10, 2009 @ 10:43 pm

Paul

1a) Yes

1b) Yes

1c) No, I would not have knowing full well I would face consequences, I would fight to change the laws within the system the country operates.

2)Survival of the fittest, I believe in Majority Rule, I you dont like start up somewhere else…. For the good of the collective pal.

Razor….I come to learn about my enemy…It is nice to be able to pick a freestater out in a crowd

Comment by xrazorwirex

November 10, 2009 @ 10:52 pm

“my enemy”

Nuff said, you violent sycophant.

Comment by name(required)

November 10, 2009 @ 10:54 pm

The insanity marches on guys. In my statement,from this morning, the preamble made it clear I was on my way to work. Not a huge supprise when I returned from my hard day to find no fewer than 4 of you engaging about it from 11:00-11:45. The fact that you were no doubt lounging around in your battle star Galactica PJs or revolutionary war reenactment costumes, at close to what Grown ups call mid day, is something I just assumed was par for the course.
What I was supprised about, was the substance of the critizism. How is it any of you are calling me out on employment,and its subsequent “free time”?I was not at my computer while you tried to make yourselves feel better after Ann so effectively Pecker slappped you all, I WAS working. . Ian in the only way he will ever win in an exchange, called out an empty computer and all but claimed some sort of perverse victory from it. What were you thinking, Paul lays out some laim Libertarian strawman questionaire he probably got handed at a medevil festival parking lot and I ran and hid under my desk,shaken from the destruction of my world view? It is amazing what a sad and delusional little man you are.

SimPaul,

We’re always two questions away from calling someone a slaver or extortionist on here aren’t we? The straw man is the first line of defence for the intellectual lackwit. if a is 10 and b is 10 you hate freedom and wish we still had slavery. So Paul, If you hate the federal government and find the idea of succesion to be attractive doesnt that mean you are the one who is in favor of Slavery? Wow any one can do this!!! This is, of course the logical fallicy of your overly simplistic world view. As long as we boil, the complex and tragic human history down to a few simple questions and sound bites we have our point proved. They are effective recruiting tools for the simple uninquizitive mind . You took the “are you a libertarian” test didnt you? Strange how your last point takes place in an imaginary “beginning of the world” scenario to construct your argument. Dont you see how this works? you build an artificial world where the majority are theives in your farm scenario and extrapolate the artificial situation to what you see wrong with the world. What if they all realized they couldn’t survive the winter without eachother and pooled an alloted amount of recources to survive? This is of course, a little closer to how things probably played out in the beginning that evolved from what I can assure you was more that 3 imaginary friends.The point is Simpaul, There is a huge difference between the dynamic of 3 and 12 billion people. The fact you don’t see that in your example speaks to your lack of vision. It is an old trick. You always frame the argument to create a funnel to only one conclusion. Some one did it to you and you just tried to do it to me. dont let that bother you though Paul, I bet you sold Amway products too. Live and learn.

Comment by Paul

November 11, 2009 @ 12:49 am

Not a huge supprise when I returned from my hard day to find no fewer than 4 of you engaging about it from 11:00-11:45. The fact that you were no doubt lounging around in your battle star Galactica PJs or revolutionary war reenactment costumes, at close to what Grown ups call mid day, is something I just assumed was par for the course.

I’m a professional engineer who is taking Tuesdays and Thursdays off to finish my masters in physics. Nice try though.

Paul lays out some laim Libertarian strawman questionaire he probably got handed at a medevil festival parking lot and I ran and hid under my desk,shaken from the destruction of my world view? It is amazing what a sad and delusional little man you are.

No, I wrote those myself. You can see them here, as part of a larger post which I repeatedly have requested responses to: http://freekeene.com/2009/08/14/courtroom-disobedience-frightens-fellow-slave/#comments

It appears you statists don’t like following links, so I copied and pasted a couple of the relevant questions.

Strange how your last point takes place in an imaginary “beginning of the world” scenario to construct your argument. Dont you see how this works? you build an artificial world where the majority are theives in your farm scenario and extrapolate the artificial situation to what you see wrong with the world.

It was a simple question, regarding your moral beliefs. Would it be right, or would it be wrong, and why?

I didn’t claim that it’s identical to our current situation. If there is some vital difference that makes the moral situation different, we can discuss this. The question was regarding the scenario I posed, to hopefully get the conversation past the spit balling phase and on to something more substantive.

What if they all realized they couldn’t survive the winter without eachother and pooled an alloted amount of recources to survive?

Did they all agree, or just the majority? If only the majority agreed, while one or two individuals decided they’d rather go it alone, do you think that majority would have the right to take their property by force anyway?

The point is Simpaul, There is a huge difference between the dynamic of 3 and 12 billion people. The fact you don’t see that in your example speaks to your lack of vision. It is an old trick. You always frame the argument to create a funnel to only one conclusion.

Of course the dynamic is different, my question regarded moral principles, not sociology. Could you answer the question first, and then we can discuss whether there are morally relevant differences between that scenario and our current situation?

Some one did it to you and you just tried to do it to me.

No one “did it to me”, I became a voluntaryist before I even knew others existed.

The reason is simple: I started applying basic moral principles to all people’s actions, not just some. If theft is immoral, on what basis are taxes moral? If slavery is wrong, on what basis is the draft ok? Majorities can and have committed atrocities through history. The majority does not determine moral principle, nor is it excepted from it. Evil is evil, no matter how popular.

dont let that bother you though Paul, I bet you sold Amway products too. Live and learn.

Another swing and a miss. The crowd rises to its feet, as only two outs remain in what would be the first no-hitter of the year. Joe, you’d have to think given this performance, they’re buying NR’s ticket back to Pawtucket as we speak.

Comment by Zeus

November 11, 2009 @ 12:55 am

Pwned.

Comment by Paul

November 11, 2009 @ 1:00 am

1a) Yes

1b) Yes

1c) No, I would not have knowing full well I would face consequences, I would fight to change the laws within the system the country operates.

EG, it appears to me that your answers 1b and 1c conflict. If immoral laws should be obeyed, how can you then say that you would disobey the particular immoral law given in 1c?

Would you say that some immoral laws should be obeyed, and others not? If so, what’s the key distinction?

Thanks, by the way, for actually honestly answering the questions

2)Survival of the fittest, I believe in Majority Rule, I you dont like start up somewhere else…. For the good of the collective pal.

Do you always believe in majority rule? What if two rapists and a victim are in an alley. Do you think that the fact that they hold a vote would make the rape moral, or do you think that the victim has inherent rights that would be violated, no matter how many supported the rape?

If you do not believe in majority rule in the case above, in what circumstances do you believe in it? What is the distinction?

Razor….I come to learn about my enemy…It is nice to be able to pick a freestater out in a crowd

I just want to let you be free to make your own choices about your life and finances, as long as you don’t harm me (or others), and I want you to extend the same courtesy to me.

Why should this make us enemies?

Comment by END GAME

November 11, 2009 @ 12:24 pm

Paul,

My seeming contradiction, just means that if I believe a law is wrong then I personally fully accept the responsibility of my actions. I feel that through the processes I believe in that I can make change.

I meant ideolocigal enemies, lunch is over I will go back to work now

Comment by iawai

November 11, 2009 @ 12:48 pm

EndGame: I believe the distinction appears when you no longer accept the legitimacy of their procedure.

There is nothing about the US court system that protects your liberties or property beyond some parchment. All the action taken by the people in the system is to press for more encroachment, for less binding of the system, for more “ease” in reaching convictions.

Because there is a monopoly on the law provision and law application in this society, neither the letter of the law nor the process of the law is going to serve justice.

Further, the distinction between substantive and procedural is messy and unclear. Even the system itself recognizes that this is a false dichotomy when needing to decide questions of choice of law or Constitutional Due Process claims.

Stop looking to the State to define your law – simply choose to live without using aggressive coercion and you’ll never run afoul of any just law – substantive or procedural.

Comment by Paul

November 11, 2009 @ 9:38 pm

This is a response to name(required)’s post, which can be found here: http://freekeene.com/2009/11/11/my-response-to-fritzs-jessica-graveline/comment-page-1/#comment-85051

Goading me into your little maze of dillusional truisms isnt going to work. You construct the peramiters for the argument, they are loaded, overly simplistic and, as I said, draw to only one conclusion. The fact that this model gives you some sort of imaginary moral high ground is dishonest and speaks to the fragility of your philosoqhy. You are only right when you make the rules.

As I mentioned in my prior post, I was not requiring that you assume my scenario is morally equivalent to the current scenario. Rather, I was asking you to define your position and reasoning for that basic scenario, as a starting point.

For example, a valid response might be: “Yes, I believe it would be immoral, for xyz reason, for those two neighbors to steal from the other in the situation you describe. However, xyz reason does not apply in the current scenario.”

Could you please describe your moral position on the scenario I described, and your reasoning, so we can go from there?

If you think taxes are theft say so, if you believe the majority has no right to rule say so, tell me why.

Of course immoral things do not become moral just because a majority supports them. If two attackers going after a victim is not ok, simply because they outnumber them, why would this rule no longer apply as the numbers increase? Two attackers and one victim is wrong, but 200 million attackers and 100 million victims is a-ok?

We’ve been propagandized in this country into excusing immoral behavior, under the color of “law”. In the past, there have been other abuses which have occurred under the color of law, which have thankfully been ended. Reformers recognized (despite the fierce opposition of many) that no majority has a right to violate basic moral principles. Unfortunately, there are still areas in which we need such reform.

We need to eliminate the delusion that an act which would be completely immoral behavior for me, becomes magically moral when I get a bunch of my friends to do it with me.

the burden of explaining human nature and its historical implications realative to how your philosophy can logisticly play it self out is on you, certainly not me

I’m not a central planner, so I can’t tell you the best way for everything to work. No one is smart enough to make everyone’s decisions for them, or shape society in their image. However, I would be happy to answer any questions, and describe my ideas regarding how society might work, without the systematic use of aggressive violence.

In my perspective, taxation, the draft, etc, are immoral for the same reason slavery was immoral: they’re aggressive uses of force, and violations of personal rights, and liberty.

Imagine if you were to say to an abolitionist, “It is up to you to describe how society might work in the absence of slavery”. The abolitionist would probably be happy to oblige, and describe some of his ideas — but frankly, slavery should have been ended because it was an immoral institution. It wasn’t necessary to work out every detail of how society might work in the absence of slavery. I feel similarly about aggressive government.

Your two rapists one victim metephor you addressed towards EG speakes to the insensitive shallowness and desparation of your thought process . Is this the language we use to persuade the uninitiated?

You’re right, I’m sorry for using such a provocative metaphor. I thought I was hitting the thieves example a little hard, so I thought I’d mix it up . Let’s say two thuggish bullies and a geek. The particular example really is irrelevant, it’s the principle of “majority rules” that’s the issue.

Heres a little secret, your system only works if every one understands, respects and follows the NAP.

Not at all. There will always be criminals, who seek to harm others, and they should be brought to justice much in the same way they are now: people employed to protect innocents will apprehend them, and bring them to a court of arbitration. I do think “punishment” should be oriented more towards restitution to be made to the victim, rather than jail time, which really helps no one, least of all the victim (who has to pay for it), and which has extremely high recidivism rates.

It is the mirror image dillusion of Communism. Instead of the altruistic begnin hand of the state to protect us, the rationed self interest of the individual and the all powerful invisible hand of the market place will perserve the balance between human interaction, am I close?

There is no such thing as a Utopia. All we can do is recognize immorality and injustice where it exists, and oppose it. I am calling it out where I see it today.

Frankly, I think the more Utopian idea is that of government as we know it. If the problem is that some in society are inclined to use violence to seek power over their neighbors, why would the solution be the creation of an organization with a monopoly on such violence and power? Would not such power not only corrupt, but attract the most power hungry and corrupt among us, as we have seen? By contrast, the honest man, who simply wants to live at peace with his neighbors, rather than rule over them, would not be naturally inclined to seek government positions.

The solution to the problem of power hungry people is not to create an organization ready made for them to exert such power.

That is what makes this closer to a religion than a political movement. All we have to to is believe, Once your read the Market for freedom you will understand.

I’m not suggesting that you believe anything for anything other than rational reasons, if that’s what you’re intending to imply. Nor do I think understanding all these issues is trivial.

Reguardless of your myopic philosophy my origional problem with the Free Keene movement, isnt with what I see as a flawed thought proccess, It is with flawed behavior. If you had brought this movement to the White Mountain region and proved to the world your system works in and of itself on its own merits in a vaccume, shit I guess id have to pack up and move. You didn’t though did you? You came to one of the strongest tax bases in the state to planted the flag.

There would be and are taxes levied, and regulations enforced, in rural NH as well. Frankly, I don’t think ducking and hiding is going to work — certainly not in the long run. The ongoing and worsening destruction of liberty in this country needs to be confronted head on.

All of the creature comforts of home, 108 to be exact, but with none of the responsibility of actually being part of the community.

I don’t think “being part of the community” is equivalent to advocating the initiation of force against your neighbors. A community is, or should be, built upon good neighborliness, voluntary trade, willing cooperation, charity, etc.

If the tradgedy of the commons is such a philisophical lynch pin for for you, why the fuck are you on ours?

Because you’ll be taking my money to pay for your commons whether I like it or not. The most egregious examples are national: Wars, welfare, government schools, money for foreign dictators, money for farmers not to grow things, mountains of pork, etc. Then, there are the reams of victimless laws, stifling regulations, police brutality, etc. Examples of injustice and abuse arrive daily. For example, an elderly couple was recently imprisoned for the rest of their lives for the crime of importing orchids without begging permission from a bureaucrat.

Government is way out of control.

People, who would never personally attack someone because they bought orchids, or personally rob someone to pay for stuff they want, support these same actions in government, because they are deluded into exempting political activity from the rules for basic decency.

This fallacy at the core of the current government philosophy — the idea that moral principles do not apply to the actions of a majority — needs to be challenged head on.

The truth is none of you care what people in keene think of you.

I care. Actually, I’m a native of Keene (well, Surry).

If you cant convert the locals we just have to import some of our own. It has been made pretty clear. Can you see how adversarial language like that would harbor any resentment?

Yes, I don’t support such adversarial language.

Peers judge based on what you do, not how you feel, or how moral you think you are. I read this site because of my origional reaction to seening your members act in public for the first time and a need to understand why. Get rid the “who the fuck are these idiots” reaction in rational adults and you may just have something. Keep up the 3rd grade grandstanding, keep up the divisive alolescant behavior and expect to continue to be recieved as the train wreck novelty you have represented yourselves to be..

There are all different kinds of people. Unfortunately, some have been unnecessarily loud and confrontational in certain cases, and I hope they can come to understand that expressing anger is often unproductive. Civil disobedience should be done in unimpeachable manner.

I would at this point like to apologize for using free state and free keene interchangably. I don’t so much have a problem with folks who want to come to the state to be free. I live here and live that way. There is lots of space, beautiful land, pretty good pot, when you take into account our proximity to Vermont and really great people if you stay out of their face and give a shit what they think.

NH is definitely the greatest state in the union (although I’m not a pot smoker, so I can’t relate to that part). You’re right to make that distinction. Many free-staters, actually probably most, work inside the system. nhliberty.org is a good site to check out if you’re willing to stand up for liberty, but prefer a political approach.

If becoming part of the political landscape is what you desire, if you make a compelling argument and the people support you, good luck. This is not the path Ian and Co have taken, distancing yourselves would serve you well in the future.

I do support civil disobedience, and other outside the system activism. Do you think these approaches are wrong? They have been extremely successful at effecting very significant change in this country, historically — the examples are numerous.

I do think suggestions regarding how to do civil disobedience most effectively would be very welcome . Certainly I agree that there are cases where the actions of some participating in liberty activism have been less than ideal, as we mentioned (too loud, or angry), but I also think there have been great successes. What kind of civil disobedience, if any, do you think would be most effective in a positive way?

Thanks very much for being willing to have a real conversation by the way, and 30 lashes is certainly not needed . If it were to be required for such innocent mistakes, it would be very bad news for me.

Comment by Paul

November 11, 2009 @ 9:59 pm

My seeming contradiction, just means that if I believe a law is wrong then I personally fully accept the responsibility of my actions.

What precisely do you mean by this? It still seems to me that in 1b you were saying that immoral laws should be obeyed, and in 1c you were giving an example of an immoral law which you would not obey.

Would you say that some immoral laws should be obeyed, and others not? Are you saying that although immoral laws should be disobeyed, they should still be enforced?

I feel that through the processes I believe in that I can make change.

Ok, there’s nothing wrong with inside the system activism. If you tried to get elected to increase liberty, and roll back government abuse, I’d certainly support you.

Could you answer my question about majorities? Do you always believe in majority rule (even in the alley example), or just sometimes? In what circumstances do you support majority rule? Are there limits to what a majority has a right to do?

I meant ideolocigal enemies, lunch is over I will go back to work now

I guess that’s better . But, I still wonder why you advocate initiating violence against peaceful people, or using threats to extort money from them. You wouldn’t excuse such behavior in yourself personally, so I wonder why you’re willing to elect “representatives” to do it for you.

Comment by Zeus

November 12, 2009 @ 5:19 am

Kudos to Paul for his usual calm and elegant responses.

Peers judge based on what you do, not how you feel, or how moral you think you are. I read this site because of my origional reaction to seening your members act in public for the first time and a need to understand why. Get rid the “who the fuck are these idiots” reaction in rational adults and you may just have something. Keep up the 3rd grade grandstanding, keep up the divisive alolescant behavior and expect to continue to be recieved as the train wreck novelty you have represented yourselves to be.

I don’t support every bit of activism done in the name of the Free State Project or Free Keene and have been quite vocal about the instances I have most disagreed with. I would rather just live out the principles I believe in while reaching out to Keene residents and others in a calm and peaceful manner. To use education, outreach, media, entertainment and other avenues to express what I believe to be true about what is wrong with this world and how best to fix it. To be a kind and decent neighbor, but to stand firmly against actions and behavior I find logically to be immoral and repugnant. Others prefer confrontational civil disobedience, politics and other forms of activism.

But keep this in mind: You are collectivizing individualists into a group just because they share a common belief in the Philosophy of Liberty and are assuming each activist is responsible for the actions of another. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Individualists are inherently stubborn. Attempting to force them to act as a coordinated group is like trying to herd cats. The entire point of being an individualist is to do your own thing, to decide for yourself what form of activism you believe is best to engage in. The most important thing to take away from this is that there is NO HIERARCHY and NO CONTROL over other activists. That’s the entire point. People who subscribe to the PoL and NAP believe people should be free to decide for themselves, not just go along to get along and blindly do what a majority tells them to do.

I can’t blame most noobs for thinking that the FSP or Free Keene acts as one big coordinated group like other groups they’re probably used to since the phrase “member” is used amongst us with wild abandon. You seem to be fairly well read on the FSP and the Philosophy of Liberty, however, so you must know by now there are no members. It’s a terrible misnomer. For there to be members would require a membership, perhaps consisting of dues and a card (and a retro cool decoder ring). There are, of course, only those who signed a statement of intent to move to NH for the purpose of liberty and to do whatever they personally believe is best in achieving “Liberty in our Lifetime”.

If you disagree with their choice of activism, feel free to express your opinion, just don’t expect that browbeating the rest of us and hurling anonymous insults randomly is going to do anything to make them shut up and go away. We are not your henchmen. We do not exert control over other activists. There is no centralized hierarchy or commanding structure. There is only individual liberty and self-responsibility.

Anything else would be counter to our principles.

Comment by Vix

November 12, 2009 @ 1:40 pm

Thank you Zeus and Paul great posts.

Comment by theKINGofKEENE

November 29, 2009 @ 10:46 pm

…the more “they” attack us, the more we fight back…the more we fight back, the stronger we become, and the more effective our activism becomes…if “they” really wanted to hurt us, they just wouldn’t post on here in the first place…but, seeing as how we’ve provided this nifty little “rage-vent” for these *STATIST*FASCIST*OPPRESSORS*, they just can’t help themselves, can they???……From the Tao Te Ching: “When peace reigns in the Kingdom, war horses are bred in the city”…<—when you understand that truth, you are following the Way…until then, you are following phony, greedy, "leaders", who take you where you should not go…

Comment by name(required)

November 30, 2009 @ 11:36 am

Zeus

I understand the claims that you are not a group and have no coordinated leader. This simply is not true. There may be more than one leader, but they coordinate activity and command influence. You and I wouldn’t be having this conversation if that were not true. You claim victory as a collective when your people come out in numbers to support your activism or have some sort of perceived success and then claim individuality when others critizize it or there is some sort of percieved failure. It is indeed a convenient mechanism. Its that cowerdice that sepparates your movement from the civil rights movement in Leadership,accountability and eventualy in outcome.

KIng of KEeEn,

you are a prime example of why the “individual” flag is waved in the air. Who would want to share a tent with the genetic mutation of Max Headroom,Golom and Sally Struthers.
When you can talk like a grown up like Zeus or Paul and stop selling pencils in a cup on the street corner people will take you a little more seriously. UNderSTAND!!!!!??!!

Comment by theKINGofKEENE

November 30, 2009 @ 2:02 pm

IFF: Sally Struthers, D-list actress, Golom: Jewish Frankenstein…..”Max Headroom”???…WTF???…Who’s that???…&Why do you think that I would want to share a tent w/them???…How much more seriously is “a little more seriously”???…OH!…as for the “individual” flag, aren’t *ALL* flags designed to be waved in the air???…”When peace reigns in the kingdom, war horses are bred in the city.”…Do *YOU*, understand *THAT*, Name(required)???…surely you can explain it for those of us/you who don’t…unDERstand???…fred?…(*grin*)…—>*IN OUR GROUP, WE ARE *ALL* FOLLOWING ALL OF *OURSELVES*…where’s ->*ANY*<- leader in *THAT*???…