Free Keene

Comment by Pete Eyre

December 4, 2009 @ 1:27 am

@7:38 “What is going on?”

Some people believe that since they have a piece of metal on their clothing they then have the right to violate your rights.

Way to hold your composure and document this encounter. A piece of parchment does not exonerate their actions – they are ultimately responsible as they chose to engage in such behavior.

Comment by PaulO

December 4, 2009 @ 1:32 am

Andrew,

I think you did a great job of remaining calm, polite and exercising your rights considering the circumstances and stress of the situation. A couple of people commented saying you should not have consented. It should be noted that this was not a battle of your own choosing. It was thrust upon you, and I (and many others) think you did a fantastic job. I await the critics to lead by example and demonstrate the proper way to handle these situations.

I also notice that the more and more that everyday people exercise their legal rights the more confrontational the police get and the more their disgraceful practices are revealed. The people need to wake up and realize that the police officers are not your friend and are not necessarily looking out for your best interests. They will manipulate, they will deceive, and they will outright lie to your face in hopes of arresting you.

It does no good to catch a criminal if you lose your own soul in the process. Especially given some of the laws that would cause you to be a criminal. Consider: which is worse, (a) using the authority of your position and complexity of the legal system to bully and deceive an innocent person or (b) to ingest a plant? Or to drive down the highway with only one headlight?

People need to wake up!

Sincerely,
- Paul O.

Comment by BLD

December 4, 2009 @ 5:41 am

Paul O, I agree that the police are NOT our friends. I once saw a “gang” of police in Washington DC kick and beat a “suspect” who was *hog tied* on the ground. I watched this for a full (agonizing) 5 minutes as they took turns kicking him and/or beating him with their flash lights. Their bottom line view: The public is the enemy, the “brotherhood police” are the “good guys” and they go fishing every day for anything that might be a potential arrest. This video is good, but you can see the same thing on COPS every night! They show it because nobody does anything about it. (notice how he mocks the camera? “I hope it’ll be on Youtube”.) He’s got nothing to fear. They can basically do whatever they want.
Pfffffttttt, freedom!

Comment by bil

December 4, 2009 @ 8:00 am

There is a whole new breed of cops out there,especially in the VSP.They had a big turnover [not the pastry type] a few years ago,and got rid of the older ones that used common sense and courtesy.Now they have a new bunch of kids that have grown up watching “Cops’,and think every stop is part of an episode.I liked the way the said that it was likely that pot had been smoked in the car sometime in the past.Who gives a fuck what he thinks may have happened in the past?They are there for the now.When it was remarked the car was 20 years old,you get a smarmy remark.Good work,guys,stick up for what is right.BTW,a buld will cost you about a buck.How much do you think it cost the State of Vermont for that roadside nonsense?Meanwhile there is a steady stream of drugs coming up 91 for south of the border,all after 2am,which is when the VSP closes up shop.Not enough money to run 24/7. —bil

Comment by Pete Eyre

December 4, 2009 @ 10:31 am

@Bil – you note that “the older ones that used common sense and courtesy” – but fail to note that like the “new bunch of kids” they too were paid by money stolen from others. Also, the “benefit” the new crop of VSP now has is the use of asset forfeiture, which quite literally allows one group of people (those with badges) to take the property (i.e. vehicles, cash, etc.) of others based on the fact that a substance some bureaucrat deems illicit may be present. For more on this, check out: Forfeiture Endangers American Rights: http://fear.org/.

And re: the “steady stream of drugs” mentioned – I assume such goods are being supplied due to a demand. The same is true for a steady stream of Sam Adams and Subaru’s. Not a big deal. People own themselves and thus have the right to ingest whatever substance they deem fit. If their actions violate someone’s rights they should be held responsible, regardless of what they may or may not have used. The real issue is drug prohibition itself, which causes and exacerbates the things you likely detest.

Comment by Jon Kiper

December 4, 2009 @ 12:32 pm

Great work folks. Let’s put the “Live Free or Die” back into New Hampshire…

Comment by iawai

December 4, 2009 @ 12:34 pm

LOL! “It’s not a threat, it’s an alternative.”

What doublespeak.

Comment by bil

December 4, 2009 @ 8:39 pm

Pete Eyre-how they each were paid is irrelevant to me in this issue-what I commented on was common sense.I would rather have them use common sense and use my ’stolen’ money wisely,not to practice their Gestapo maneuvers.
I am not too concerned about the differance between the drugs and the Subarus.What I see is the hipocracy of stopping someone for over 2 hours over a possible scent of pot that may have been smoked in the vehicle sometime in the last 20 years,and the ignoring of what the ‘war’ on drugs is supposedly against.
As to what I may ‘likely detest’it is exactly the behavior shown in the video.Like the war on ‘terror’,the war on ‘drugs’ is not about stopping something,it is about control,it is about getting people to get used to being stopped anywhere and anytime and being forced to produce your ‘papers’.
It is about getting people used to the idea of forming little lines and following orders,no questions asked.It is about making people think if they go along with these controls,things will somehow be ‘better’.Do as you are told,what do you have to hide? If you are innocent,why don’t you want us looking in your trunk?What are you hiding?We can make you stand here forever.We can cause trouble if you don’t co-operate.
It is to make it seem normal for you to be pulled out of a line for no reason.It is to make you feel like you are traveling only because of their letting you,and you should be gratefull and willing to undergo any insult or indignity.Is is to make America become the way they want,not the way the people want.It is to prepare us for Amerika,the corporation. That is what I detest. —bil

Comment by Keene Teen

December 5, 2009 @ 1:11 am

<<<> Ok first of all you are right, police are not your friend, and it’s not their job to be your friend. Their job is to enforce the laws and uphold the constitution. Another thing is when you’re caught with drugs or are breaking the law they are not going to look out for your best interests. Finally nowhere in any law does it prohibit police from lying. One thing you might want to try sometime is doing a ride along without cameras and just talk to any police officer about the job. These guys and gals are human. They all have families and personal lives outside of work just like you and me. Your problem is you’re so focused on the bad things a select few officers in the area or any other state do, you forget how many good cops are out there and all the good things they do. Essentially you crucify all police. I don’t see why some of you demand respect when you sure as hell don’t give it to them by bashing everything every one of them does. You are all the first to complain and bash the police, that is until you need them. I guess my point is that not all police are bad and none of you guys even give them a chance. BTW I want to see unedited versions of both these videos, without cutting of scenes, or do you have something to hide?
Finally I leave with some quotes “I’m not concerned with your liking or disliking me… All I ask is that you respect me as a human being.”
“Never take a person’s dignity: it is worth everything to them, and nothing to you.”
**** “Men are respectable only as they respect”****

- Another average Keene teen

Comment by KEENETEENHATER

December 5, 2009 @ 1:49 am

Comment by Keene Teen

December 5, 2009 @ 1:11 am

“Another thing is when you’re caught with drugs or are breaking the law they are not going to look out for your best interests. Finally nowhere in any law does it prohibit police from lying. “………..<—-"Another thing is when you're writing crap off the top of your head…

Comment by Josh

December 5, 2009 @ 1:51 am

My neighbor is a police officer and seems to be a decent man. Brad Jardis has proven worthy of my respect for coming to see a lot of the laws he has to enforce are immoral and has taken a courageous stand. Any time I have ever called the police for assistance I have been severely disappointed with their service. They are not out there protecting me from anything, however much they want t convince themselves they are.

Keene Teen, please tell me how “detaining” Andrew for nearly three hours kept anybody safe. Bil hit it right on the head – it’s about conditioning people into expecting and silently suffering this kind of treatment and disrespect at any time and in any place. These people will deserve more respect when they stop blindly enforcing whatever control scheme the people calling themselves government demand. The whole scheme is that the system is supposed to reflect the society “the people” wish to see. when in fact it is cowardly elitists and their paid enforcers that marginalize and persecute all us peons.

That is precisely the case with marijuana persecution. There is no threat to society from somebody getting stoned and watching Jumanji.

Comment by Ian

December 5, 2009 @ 2:06 am

Keene Teen, you should know that I as one of the bloggers do consider police to be humans and I have a gift for you:
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=1C7543D382FB315F&search_query=keene+police

It’s exactly what you suggested. A ride-along with KPD’s Shane Maxfield. Enjoy!

Comment by PaulO

December 5, 2009 @ 2:21 am

Keene teen,

I understand not all cops are bad people. I do. Others on this website (and even Andrew in his responses about these videos) have also given credit where credit is due when they meet respectable police officers.

However, as someone raised in a family that generally had an almost sacred view of cops and The Law, I have had a rude awakening. The more I learned about how the legal system worked and watching police in action (for just one example, you can see it easily on the Cops show), the more disgusted I became, especially as a Christian. I do not believe you should knowingly deceive or coerce innocent people, even if you’re trying to do it for the greater good. I believe we are all accountable to God for our individual choices. Doing something dishonest because your boss told you to, or because “nowhere in any law does it prohibit police from lying” is no excuse.

But hey, I’m not God nor am I giving out a sentence. I’m simply stating that lying is bad. Not all cops do it, but the public should be made aware and they should not hold a trusting view of cops like I used to.

when you’re caught with drugs or are breaking the law they are not going to look out for your best interests

Or when one of your headlights burns out. Or if they can’t read the temporary tags of your RV. Or if you want to hug your wife before going to jail for 6 months. I could go on and on.

“An unjust law is no law at all.” Look it up. Think about it. The whole point of law is Justice. Then watch Andrew’s videos again.

Sincerely,
- Paul O.

Comment by ihavehadenough

December 5, 2009 @ 6:56 am

Keene teen….
Not going to argue with your points…just attribute quotes please when you use them.

Thanks

Comment by thinkliberty

December 5, 2009 @ 11:06 am

If cops were “good” they would refuse to take extortion money as payment for the work they do. You know — Money that was taken from people under threat of having their homes taken from them or going to prison for tax “evasion”, if they don’t pay the cops salary.

A good cop would protect people from the politician’s bureaucratic mafia, But there are no good cops and people remain unprotected as cops continue to take bribes from city, state and federal governments.

Comment by Keene Teen

December 5, 2009 @ 11:35 am

Thanks for everyone’s response to my comment, it’s nice to see that there is some respect from the libertarian community.
Josh- Your correct the VT State police had no reason to “detain” him for almost three hours. I will tell you that as a criminal justice major I am aware that police do have probable cause to search a vehicle if the vehicle smells like there has been weed smoked recently or if they smell the odor of burning weed. I don’t know how the car smelt because I was not present. I will say if must have had quite an odor for an officer to articulate enough suspicion to pull the occupant out and search his persons and vehicle. One thing I would like to see is a full unedited version of the dog walking around the car. Dogs have a certain sign that they show when they alert to drugs. I’m not making accusations but it was a little fishy to me that you edited that part because you may have edited out a part where the dog alerted. If I also remember correctly the guy said he couldn’t believe that a dog could hold his fate or something along those lines. I will tell you guys those dogs go through an unbelievable training program and are highly skilled at detecting drugs. Now another aspect you have to look at it the fact the I91 is the main drug route throughout New England. Vermont has its hands full with all of the drug trafficking from Mass. particularly Fitchburg. That might be another reason that by smelling the odor of weed, it would lead to them searching your car because they are simply trying to stop as much of the trafficking as they can. I guess the parties involved found out Vermont state police are not the super troopers they saw on TV.
Ian- I actually have watched your ride along videos and my two words of advice are to not do a ride along with KPD and to not bring a camera. First of all let it be known that when you bring a camera, people are going to say what you or the department would want them to say. If you don’t bring a camera they will open up a lot more and reveal themselves as more human. The second thing is KPD by no means represents the local law enforcement community of Cheshire County. In fact they are very different in quite a few ways.
Paulo- As someone familiar with law enforcement I will tell you that 90% of officers are going to let you off with a warning for a head/tail light out or not being able to read your tags. Most even tend to knock down your speed on a ticket just to save you 100 bucks. I know an officer who the other day, knocked down speed to save someone from paying 230 bucks. They do understand that we are people and we do make mistakes. The hug your wife thing I have no clue what it’s about but it could have been for a number of reasons.
Just a last note to everyone, how about instead of hurting your relationship with local law enforcement by chastising them and everything they do, you try finding something you all agree on and gain their support? Just an idea…

“Coming together is a beginning. Keeping together is progress. Working together is success.” – Henry Ford

“Teamwork is the ability to work together toward a common vision. The ability to direct individual accomplishments toward organizational objectives. It is the fuel that allows common people to attain uncommon results.”-Andrew Carnegie

-The Keene Teen

Comment by nick

December 5, 2009 @ 11:52 am

A. The video is edited to keep people’s interest, not hide information. In fact, I re-did part of the video before posting it because in the first edit I accidentally made it look like the trooper made Andrew take his shoes and socks off, and didn’t give them back before making him walk to the back of the car.

Nonetheless, if you want the full thing, please submit a $15 donation to our contribute link http://freekeene.com/contribute/ and let me know your mailing address.

B. Wouldn’t this be much better on everyone without the insane war on drugs? Whether or not the trooper did things “by the book” doesn’t matter as much as the fact that they can use plant matter as an excuse to hold someone for hours.

Comment by Keene Teen

December 5, 2009 @ 12:20 pm

Nick- I would like to see that video but I’m just not paying 15 bucks to a cause I have little in common with. I will however TRUST your word if you say that you did not see or recognize an alert from the dog searching the vehicle. The trooper could have been right and the dog probably did smell past odors of pot. You also do have a good point about being detained for three hours. You do however need to understand that it is their job to enforce drug laws, not necessarily their choice. If the stop had been anywhere else they may not have held him so long because it’s not located on a major drug trafficking route. They don’t know who the guy is for all they know he could have a few grams of coke or heroin on him.
Bil- I saw in your post on the other page that you mentioned profiling by the police? And that maybe they are sharing information over the state lines about your car and such? Police have access to all of your motor vehicle and criminal records no matter what state you’re in. They do also talk across the line to other agencies. Most of the talks are about key king pin drug dealers in the area. They hardly have the time to waste chasing down Free Staters. I can tell you with a great deal of confidence that they are not targeting specific Free State members. If you noticed the VT State police had no idea who you guys are….. So I would argue the detaining was hardly due to profiling. BTW what was the occupant pulled over for? I’m guessing speeding because VT State police don’t just pull people over…

-The Keene Teen

Comment by nick

December 5, 2009 @ 12:31 pm

Actually, I never said I didn’t see a dog alert. In fact, in part one (did you see part 1?), I say “I don’t know what a dog alert looks like.”

As for paying, it’s fine if you don’t want to. I make videos and DVDs as a job, so I cannot be doing extra work for people on the internet upon request with no compensation, sorry.

- Okay, so they don’t know who almost anyone is. Tons of pot and crack probably drove past the officers while they were searching. Should they stop and detain EVERYONE because “They don’t know who [anyone] is for all they know he could have a few grams of coke or heroin on him.”? The war on drugs hurts innocent people.

He was pulled over for a headlight being out.

Comment by Paul

December 5, 2009 @ 12:55 pm

Teen, immoral jobs should not be done. Plenty of horrible things have been done in history by otherwise normal people because it was “their job”.

Harassing people because the might possibly have a plant in their car is absolutely immoral. I don’t smoke pot — I consider it a poor choice, but I also don’t have a right to force people to make only choices I approve of. I don’t own them or their bodies, nor do the cops.

We do need protection services — we need people to hunt down and stop thieves, murders, etc — people who really have hurt others. We don’t need people running around enforcing whatever arbitrary diktats a politician or bureaucrat feels like writing down.

If I were free to make my own choices with my finances, I would choose to fund a police type service that would focus on enforcing only crimes with victims. I certainly would not fund the harassment of people for hours on end, over the possibility of having a plant. Unfortunately, if I don’t pay these cops they will kick me out of my own home, or throw me in prison.

Above all, that is my biggest objection to their behavior — they obtain money by extorting it from innocent people.

People should be free to choose what services they will support.

Comment by Paul

December 5, 2009 @ 1:07 pm

Oh, and if you want to see behavior that actually has some likelihood of putting others at risk, look no further than the same cop that was harassing Nick:

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=10328562

He was caught doing 130 on the interstate.

But, of course, he only got a fine — any of us serfs would be rotting in jail. The gross double standard lives on. Actually, we’re lucky it got called in at all. Most of the time a blind eye is turned to malfeasance by cops. There are many, many documented cases of outrageous police abuse resulting in no consequences to the perpetrator whatsoever.

Comment by Andrew

December 5, 2009 @ 3:12 pm

Teen. Thanks for coming to this site and showing an interest.

I was pulled over for a headlight being out, which I asked the officer to help me take care of. Rather than help solve the so called problem, he chose to detain and search me. I can assure you that the car did not smell like weed, just cigarettes and a slim jim beef stick. If you don’t believe me that I had nothing on me, then you’d probably believe the cops. They found nothing.

All in all, I do not think that $156 fine, 3 hours of detainment, humiliation, fear, intimidation and threats are appropriate punishments for a simple headlight malfunction.

Comment by ihavehadenough

December 5, 2009 @ 4:02 pm

About the only thing worse than a young cop that has an anti drug axe to grind…is a young criminal justice major that thinks he has all the worlds problems solved! Hey Teen…free advice:
Listen, observe, take notes and grow to maturity before you try and express complicated opinions and question peoples concept of liberty. What you think you know from the books and laws and rules are not what happens in the real world. Half of whats wrong with the world right now is kids that have never had to pay a mortgage, feed a family or just survive, vote and think they have all the simplistic answers…their numbers have changed policies and usually for the worse. A lot of them are the reason there is that knucklehead in the white house with bumbles Biden by his side.

Comment by PaulO

December 5, 2009 @ 9:00 pm

Just a last note to everyone, how about instead of hurting your relationship with local law enforcement by chastising them and everything they do, you try finding something you all agree on and gain their support? Just an idea…

I don’t want you to take this the wrong way, but I do take issue with this. The FreeKeene.com community is large and diverse. It is filled with a wide variety of individuals engaged in a lot of activism. Based on some things you have posted, I’m going to guess you heard bad things about us from some LEO friends/relatives of yours and assume we spend all of our time protesting issues, civil disobedience, or trying to hold cops accountable. Just as you ask us to find something we can do together, I’m going to ask you to spend some time learning about things we already do that LEO are more than welcome to join us in:

We hold a monthly food drive for the Keene Kitchen, where anyone is welcome (and encouraged) to bring a few cans of whatever they can spare. There’s a monthly Fully Informed Jury Association outreach. Local political campaigning for conscientious candidates like Nick. I know Nick and a couple others were regularly attending city council meetings, although I don’t know if they still do. A few of us were going to the City of Keene’s Master Plan seminars to try and discuss solutions that don’t involve spending tax dollars. There are calls to the local radio show on Saturdays to discus issues. There’s a weekly local high school outreach. And a lot, lot, lot more. And yes, there is civil disobedience, sign waving, and trying to hold cops accountable.

However, I don’t know of anyone that engages in all of these. We’re not a hierarchical organization. There is not a leader or board of directors that organizes and directs the FreeKeene.com community. But while we all want to lessen the role of government (some to a greater degree than others), we differ very much in the methodologies we view as the most effective and most ethical way to achieve that.

Maybe you want to lessen the role of government too, and have a better idea of how to gain the support of local police officers. Instead of challenging us to find a better way, how about this: I challenge you to initiate such a avenue of activism. Join us. We have a very large tent. Use the forums. Communicate your idea–the more persuasive the better. Start an event. It’ll be put on the calendar. There’s a very good chance you’ll receive some support from the FreeKeene.com community if you present a good idea.

As someone familiar with law enforcement I will tell you that 90% of officers are going to let you off with a warning for a head/tail light out or not being able to read your tags.

Maybe. What would you say the percent is if the person in question is exercising their legal rights by not answering the officer’s questions?

_________________________________

About the only thing worse than a young cop that has an anti drug axe to grind…is a young criminal justice major that thinks he has all the worlds problems solved! Hey Teen…free advice:
Listen, observe, take notes and grow to maturity before you try and express complicated opinions and question peoples concept of liberty.

I disagree very much. Cultural, political, and revolutionary change often comes from the strength of the youth. They are less jaded, less set in their ways, and less afraid of change. If there is one segment of society that liberty activists would do well to win the support of, it is the high school and college age crowd. And I also disagree about young cops and young criminal justice majors. These are often the ones that really care about Justice, and would rather take these jobs because of that than pursue a civilian career.

Sincerely,
- Paul O.

Comment by BLD

December 6, 2009 @ 7:44 am

Again, PaulO posted an important observation; this cop was cited for speeding at 130 mph just this past May! Talk about walking a fine line between law enforcement and criminal! Officer Studin is a law breaker! How can they allow an officer with such poor judgment patrol our streets and stop law abiding citizens?

<"Commissioner Tremblay declined to speak about his role in the incident, but in a written statement said, "The speed that I witnessed in this matter was extremely unsafe and the Trooper's judgment was not in line with the high standards expected of a Vermont State Trooper."

Studin has since paid the fine.

No other disciplinary measures were taken.

Studin was charged more than the normal civil fine, which for that speed is $638.

It's likely a civilian driver would also have faced a criminal charge.

Under Vermont law, a criminal charge can be brought forth if the driver is traveling at least 30 miles over the posted speed limit and that charge carries a penalty of up to three months in prison.

Keagan Harsha – WCAX News

Comment by bil

December 6, 2009 @ 3:30 pm

It is good to see another viewpoint taken seriously and with positive comments.The future,if we are to have one,is likely in the hands of the youth that are growing up today.Lets make sure they are educated with open minds.
Teen-While the police do have access to records from all over the US,they are also quite aware of what goes on in Keene over in Brattleboro.I am not suggesting they pulled this stop because of any bumper stickers if any were present,but similar behavior has occured before.Not with the Free State movement that I know of,but other issues. —bil —bil

Comment by Keene Teen

December 7, 2009 @ 2:21 am

Thank you Paulo and Bil for the positive feedback, I do appreciate someone having the decency to not completely curb stomp my ideas/opinions.
Bil- I really don’t think that Andrew being pulled over was a case of profiling, just a case of really (shitty) luck. But the sad reality is that we all do profile from time to time. We shouldn’t but it just happens, and I’m sure just like us, police tend to profile too after dealing with the same people day in and day out.
Paulo- You most definitely had some good points. I will say I do have some close police acquaintances but most of my views are simply from checking in on this site and just seeing you guys around our city. Personally I am all for protesting for what you believe in and have always been around stuff like that. The one thing I draw the line on is when protesting goes too far. Smoking pot in our common is exactly that, breaking the law. Another thing that just completely disgusted me was the way many in the crowds treated our local law enforcement. If you sit there swearing at them calling them pigs and just insulting them and their purpose at the top of your lungs, you should by no means expect much respect in return from any of the officers. All some of the protests and videos seemed to do was outrage and basically piss off officers and general members of society. I will say that I did not have that strong of a negative feeling until I saw those actions, and I know a lot of people who tend to feel the same way……If you went about it a different way you would gain much more support from the local community. If the regular 4:20 fests didn’t hurt your reputation enough, than the rally at pumpkin fest did. That protest was in many ways a bad idea. Yes you did get your message out there but lets see, you protested for an illegal substance at a family event which ticked off parents of young children, you got arrested which made it look like you are causing problems, and you did it when you knew every cop in the damn state would be in Keene….did you all think about the negative messages you send compared to the good ones. You all have many ideas and some yes I could agree with but the way you go about everything by throwing cameras in peoples faces is just not the way to get things to change. If you make a good impression with the local community, then you can try running for offices and try to change things. But now I apologize for the fact that I have completely gotten off topic, I do agree with your statement about our generation and change. We are not afraid to change things, but we can’t try and change them too quickly or they won’t work out. Your last statements are very true. Justice is what inspired me to law enforcement. I just hate seeing laws being broken, crimes being committed, with people not being held accountable. I also hate seeing a select few officers tarnish a brotherhood stronger than any other in the United States, by not carrying out there duties/responsibilities. I do recognize many problems in our legal system but that is something that will take time and effort to change. Again thanks for the input, I do enjoy hearing others views on subjects regarding law enforcement and such. I find myself not feeling as negative now that I have seen that not all free staters are the same, but do still have some issues with things the group does. I do apologize if some feel personally insulted by any statements I made but all kidding aside some of you have no problem trashing other peoples opinions anyhow.
Just a quote I would like to share…

“Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.”- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Thanks,
The Keene Teen

Comment by Paul

December 7, 2009 @ 2:48 am

Teen, I suggest that a better attitude might be to hate seeing people harmed. Many examples of very immoral laws can be found throughout our history. I am sure you would not hate to see laws enforcing slavery or segregation broken, for example, if you had lived at those times, or laws against woman’s suffrage.

Morality is not defined by whatever arbitrary thing a politician or bureaucrat writes down. Please think for yourself, and carefully consider your moral principles, as a person. Good men and women obey their consciences even when they conflict with commands from above.

To enforce victimless crimes, which should not be crimes at all, is to become a perpetrator of harm oneself. For example, I think we all recognize that if I were to go tackle someone and drag them off to jail for wearing a red shirt, to take an arbitrary example, that would be grossly immoral behavior.

I think it’s a little silly to imagine that that fact would change because a politician somewhere wrote some words on paper, prohibiting red shirts. Harming innocent people, and violating their rights, is wrong — no matter how many people support it. In other words, popular opinion does not change moral truth.

“Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add “within the limits of the law” because law is often but the tyrant’s will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.”

-Thomas Jefferson

“That principle is, that the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. That the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant.”

-John Stuart Mill

Comment by ihavehadenough

December 7, 2009 @ 4:00 pm

Keene Teen…
That brotherhood you refer too…Is it the one that covers up crimes by the brothers such as DWI and domestic violence? The ones that share confiscated marijuana with their friends and families? The one that allows them to commit flagrant traffic violations in Rochester that would put you and me in jail and use their power against each other to suppress responsibility? Is that the brotherhood? This brotherhood extends into the prosecuters office and beyond. The other words for the brotherhood? Conspiracy and coverup.

Comment by bil

December 7, 2009 @ 5:38 pm

I would hope he is refering to the brotherhood of the officers that are in it to actcually ‘protect and serve’,there are officers that are doing that,believe it or not.They are not all ‘tools of oppression’ ,taking ’stolen’ money and running rampant.The problem is that they are working in the same organisation as the ‘brotherhood’ you refer to,and the groups sometimes overlap.There are cops that are just as sickened as you are about the abuses of the system,and one label does not fit them all. —bil

Comment by Jackie

December 8, 2009 @ 6:06 am

I happned upon the Free Keene Forum and website completely by accident and am finding this quite interesting. I was completely impressed with Andrews handling of this situation. I myself had an episode with the VSP Sept. 9, 2008. My 25 yr. old dtr was in a coma at Dartmouth as I was headed to Winchester to pick up her Fiance on I – 91 I received the call from the hospital that I needed to return A.S.A.P. as my dtr. had taken a severe turn for the worse. In my panic over my dtr passing before I got back I was speeding, low and behold an officer stopped me, kept me for 20 minutes or so as my dtr was potentially passing away and gave me the biggest fine he could. She did pass but thankfully not before I got back. There is the humanitarianism in our police of today.

Comment by Andrew

December 8, 2009 @ 4:05 pm

Thanks for for the positive comment, although I’m sorry to hear about your story Jackie. Would you be willing to share with us the location of the stop and the name(s) of the officer(s), and perhaps some more details of your encounter.

Comment by Brad

December 8, 2009 @ 9:04 pm

This is a particularly productive forum.

Paul’s offering of the article on the officer in the video driving 133 miles per hour without cause

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=10328562

makes me think that keeping blogs and files on all these nice public servants is exactly what the doctor ordered. They are keeping files on everyone they encounter, too.

The link to the lawyers and the dogs, also particularly interesting.

http://rexcurry.net/drugdogsmain.html

This is most excellent to share these ideas and resources.

Comment by Alpo348{onus

December 9, 2009 @ 9:30 pm

You really did an excellent job.

Comment by Mike

December 9, 2009 @ 11:30 pm

It is a sad state of today’s society and youth that this is how they choose to spend their time. They are so thirsty for their five minutes of fame and so eager to “create” a video that they seek out the police and attempt to create a scene in the hopes that they can capture some tabloid like video. Instead of assisting law enforcement and bettering the community they would rather waste taxpayer money and public serveant time. I feel sad for these people and the life they have choose.

Comment by Paul

December 10, 2009 @ 12:07 am

Dude, they didn’t seek out anything. He was pulled over for a tail light being out. Get a grip.

And if you can’t see the rapid loss of liberty that has occurred and is occurring in this country, your head’s so far in the sand you’d probably dig yourself out faster by going down than up.

Comment by PaulO

December 10, 2009 @ 1:19 am

Mike,

I would say it was the police who chose this, not the others involved. The police initiated the stop, they called in the canine unit, they had 4 police cars there with the lights on. If any were responsible for seeking this out and attempting to create the scene, it would appear to the unbiased bystander that the fault lies with the so-called public servants. They wrote the script, produced, directed, and acted in the entire event. The others are simply broadcasting their forced participation. And a show is all they did, serving only to promote ignorance and obedience. To the contrary, the videos help to promote the truth through understanding, transparency, and accountability.

I like the sign I saw at one of the 420 events: “Prison is more harmful than marijuana.”

______________________________________________________

Teen Keene,

Although the 420 events were initiated by Rich and Noah, they quickly grew beyond that to include many, many folks from the community who have never even heard of FreeKeene.com. Even so, Rich (and others) regularly asked everyone to remain civil. Rich was arrested twice, and I’m certain the officers involved with him would agree that Rich was very polite and civil. Honestly, he’s about the friendliest guy you’re going to meet. (and happy birthday Rich!)

Now the idea of doing the 420 event at Pumpkin Fest was discussed on this forums leading up to it. As there is no leader, no hierarchical chain of command, those who wanted to participate did and those who didn’t abstained. It’s as simple as that. While you’re free to point at those who did that as being inconsiderate, I would ask that you also recognize that some did not participate. And you know what? Neither of these actions fully represent exactly what FreeKeene.com is about. As the About page says: “Consider this blog your link to ideas, media, and discussion about how we can end government aggression and replace it with voluntary alternatives, thereby achieving liberty in our lifetime.” There are no overarching official stances on anything, really, aside from being peaceful and a general desire for less government. I guess I’m trying to say, by simply posting comments here you are just like me. I encourage you to stay, and continue to post. See what happens. Support activism you agree with. Don’t support activism you disagree with. It’s as easy as that. Get involved as much or as little as you want.

“Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.”- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

I spent some time thinking about this quote, and am not sure what to make of it. Right now I’m questioning whether there is a “conscience of the whole of humanity.” I have more of an individualistic worldview, one in which I am solely responsible for myself before my God, so I have a hard time imagining a collective conscience of the whole of humanity, especially one agreeing on much of anything. The lazy interpretation would be that this is defending the idea that the “majority makes right,” but I don’t believe that’s what he’s saying at all. Your thoughts?

Sincerely,
- Paul O.

Comment by ihavehadenough

December 10, 2009 @ 6:36 am

Mike,
What the hell are you talking about? Every point you make is flawed. Assist law enforcement? Better the community. The two are so opposed that its like fire and ice!

Comment by iawai

December 10, 2009 @ 12:15 pm

It is a sad state of today’s society and police that this is how they choose to spend their time. They are so thirsty for their quota of certain busts and to ruin the lives of nonviolent youth that they seek out to search vehicles and attempt to create a scene in the hopes that they can capture some harmless plant material. Instead of assisting people and bettering the community they would rather waste taxpayer money and public serveant [sic] time. I feel sad for these people and the life they have choose [sic].

Comment by Keene Teen

December 13, 2009 @ 2:15 am

Paulo,

I must be honest and say I also have a hard time dissecting this quote. I think what he means is that justice is a belief or thought. Inside of us all there is a general feeling about what we think is right and what is wrong. Even though we all interoperate things differently in our own minds, we can still all come to an agreement on some level. This is how I interoperated the quote…but it is a very tricky one to dissect and could mean any number of things really.
Thanks for being supportive as well as understanding and reflecting on my comments. I do plan to keep posting on other videos ect… as well. I do enjoy debating and being able to voice my opinions on matters. The good thing about me doing so is, I know from personal experience its always nice to hear some of the more opposite opinions on matters because it helps us understand each other better and gives us some insight that we may have otherwise not received. Although I am not a libertarian or free stater I’m sure that I may have a few opinions in common as those of the movement, and am looking forward to continue getting my voice out there.

Couple more quotes you may like or want to ponder.

“We cannot always build the future for our youth, but we can build our youth for the future.”-F.D,R

“The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently.”- Friedrich Nietzsche

“Justice without force is powerless; force without justice is tyrannical.”-Blaise Pascal

Thanks again,

The Keene Teen

Comment by Paul

December 13, 2009 @ 3:20 am

Teen,

I’d be interested in your thoughts on my last post, and quotes, when you have some time. Thanks!

I agree with the first two quotes in your post above, and partially agree with the last one. It can be right to use force for the sake of justice, but I think there are also sometimes non-forceful ways justice can be had — for example, using boycotts, ostracism, etc.

Comment by name(required)

December 14, 2009 @ 11:08 am

Ihavehadenough,

In refference to 85524 where you admonish Keeneteen for being young, idealistic, oversimplistic and unable to comprehend the complex ideas and theories presented. It is clear to me, that if he had not divulged his age, he would be indistinguishable from any other age group who writes in here. More to the point, your adjectives used to describe him are hillariously accurate in describing most of the people involved with free keene. The only active mechanisms at work for this whole group are misguided idealism and oversimlicity. If you took those away, there would be nothing. Take a poll and see how many bread winning mortgage holders are reading this right now. What, you think the 4:20 thing was a bunch of working mothers and fathers taking the day off early to fight injustice? Give me a break.You need to take another look at your demographic. KT has outclassed you and certainly does not merit any condesention from your direction. It is nauseating to think the concepts here are reguarded as too complex for others. Thats what is so funny to me, when some one outside the FK disagrees with people here, the assumption is that the person simply does not understand your stance. It is an unbelievably arrogant premise for debate. After all, who could hate liberty and freedom? Concepts which are so universally understood and defined. What evil soul could disagree with the NAP when harm is such a direct apparent and and non subjective concept? Every one else is just too simple I suppose.

Comment by nhwhig

December 14, 2009 @ 12:52 pm

The world today only seems to find two sides: good and evil/bad/wrong. We discuss issues like whether cops are good or bad and their role in our society. However, we all fail to realize that there are varying degrees of nearly everything. With cops, even within a department there are different types of people. Different departments are different from each other. I will guarantee that local cops will treat a violator differently than a state trooper or even a big city cop. We all fail to recognize the human element in everything, that various things are dependent on the emotions of each and every person. It is extremely irresponsible to say that something is “always” or “never” something.

I love this quote because it captures the essence of government, how it is a body created by the people to resolve collective-action problems. It is adjusted to fit the needs of the people and that it is the people who control the way it works. The so-called “bureaucrats” are people themselves and aren’t the robots that many contributors to this site claim they are. This quote shows that the government is reflective of what the people want. The laws are a reflection of what the general population feel are issues. The people of government are elected because the people of society felt that they were the best choice to fulfill the needs of society. It is not the fault of the people of government that society doesn’t bend to the favor of ultra-libertarian/anarchist/”voluntaryist” faction of society, it is the fault of the people of society for wanting that. So stop blaming the government and blame your neighbors, your relatives, and your acquaintances for creating a society that works against your “preferences.”

Seriously, grow up.

Comment by nhwhig

December 14, 2009 @ 1:16 pm

The quote I was referring to was this:

“Justice is conscience, not a personal conscience but the conscience of the whole of humanity. Those who clearly recognize the voice of their own conscience usually recognize also the voice of justice.”- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Comment by Paul

December 14, 2009 @ 2:49 pm

Nice try, nhwhig, but every person is responsible for their own actions. Even if everyone in my apartment block agrees that I should go vandalize the property of that jerk in 14g, or wants me to go steal their property so we can split it among ourselves, it would still be wrong for me to do so.

“Everyone else was doing it”, or, “I was ordered to do it” are pathetic excuses for immoral behavior.

Comment by nhwhig

December 15, 2009 @ 12:21 am

No, you obviously missed my argument. I was stating that everyone is responsible. Rather than solely placing the blame on the people of the government, blame must also go towards the people who put those people into government. Why is it okay to keep slapping John the Mayor’s hand when it is the City of Keene’s fault for electing him? Look at the presidency, you can’t completely blame George W. Bush for being a bad president because the American public was responsible for putting him in that position.

Everyone fails to understand that it is the American people who are in the driver’s seat. Because we are in the driver’s seat, we need to learn to accept the blame ourselves because this is our society.

Comment by Paul

December 15, 2009 @ 1:14 am

I can agree that those who vote for a person for public office bear some moral responsibility for what they do — especially if it could have been expected at the time of the election.

It’s true that it would not happen if there were no popular support.

That said, I can blame George W Bush for being a bad president — really, I think the responsibility lies both with him and with his supporters.