“Servant” Refuses to Answer Simple Question

July 1, 2010 by Ian
Filed under: Video

CDEvolution‘s Jason Talley encounters Lebanon police in a parking lot:

Video courtesy CopBlock.org.

http://dailyanarchist.com Seth

I'm curious how Brad got converted. Was he approached in the same manner as this cop here? Was he talked to in his off time? I have a hard time imagining the conversion of Brad happening in this sort of manner. Surely, there must be a better way.
thinkliberty

There is no chance to reason with the armed thug as he aggresses against the person driving the SUV.

I think some some cops can be converted with kindness and others may converted by being shamed by society when they are seen aggressing against peaceful people.
http://www.copblock.org adam

Seth – Good question for Brad. I think we should encourage him to blog about that process and why he feels it worked (or what worked) for him. That would be a good post to share with other LEO's
bil

I work for others ,I suppose I could be considered a 'servant' of some sort,as I provide a service,and they pay.I would not take it too kindly to be talked to in that manner by any of them.Nor would I tolerate the tone used when you called his 'servant' as if you were somehow a superior ,and could actually order him around.It certainly isn't right,but it could explain the problems that can occur when it is dark and no video.A little respect would help,rather than instant confrontation.You don'tr have to respect the uniform or the job (I don't) but he is still a person.How do you expect to convert anyone when you condescendingly call them 'servant'? —bil
thinkliberty

Bil,

Does your boss and/or clients actually want the services you provide? Most people I know don't want the services that the police provide, they are force to pay for them anyway.

Do you threaten to kidnap and cage your boss and/or clients, if your boss and/or clients do not want the service you provide? Do you threaten to steal their property when they don't want your services? Cops do.

Do you aggress against peaceful people as part of your job? Cops do.

Would you quit your job if your boss or clients talked to you like that? Maybe the police will quit their jobs. That would be nice.

Those cops in the video aggressed against peaceful people. How do you expect anyone to respect them, when they don't respect anyone else?

If the police are not in the act of aggressing against peaceful people, then yes you can try to convert them.

But I think anyone initiating force against someone else should be met with instant confrontation. They need to be told what they are doing is not socially acceptable.
bigScrotum

So Jason T. thinks this is "good" to show "what"?

Jason T. has decided to treat the cop as enigma, which I suppose, is the way Jason T. assumes each cop treats him. Since he has never met each and every cop, he assumes too much, and as a result simply displays his own aggression.

Conclusion: So much for MLK and Gandhi approach to change, at least as Jason T. is concerned.

Big fail. Jason T. is an idiot with a camera making fool of himself.
Bradley Jardis

Big fail. Jason T. is an idiot with a camera making fool of himself.

Jason T. is a human being who will not alway do everything perfectly.

It is possible to offer criticism without being a jerk, man.
bigScrotum

@Bradley
I made my considered criticism, then summed it up, in a way Jason T. might understand. If you take offense to criticism directed at Jason T., maybe you as blogger of this interaction, should consider that by posting it as an exemplar of "peaceful" people, you paint yourself with the same aggressive paintbrush. So, keep defending it if you wish.
Bradley Jardis

I disagree with how Jason interacted with that police officer.

I disagree with you calling him an idiot.

That's all I was saying.
bil

As a part of one of my jobs (I have several,keep spread out)-sometimes,sometimes ,never,yes.The other jobs-Yes,no,never,yes.

I am not sure if the camera man was actually involved with the traffic stop or whatever it was.It looked like he interjected himself into it.If so,maybe the person being stopped had his own way of dealing with it,and interferance was not welcome.I am a fairly peaceful person,but have my own methods of dealing with the police.If I was stopped and the camera man interfered with anything,it would be the last time he used that camera.Would any of you like someone pissing off the cops while you were the subject of a stop?Who will have to deal with the POed cop,you or the driver.If you or a friend are the subject of the stop,feel free to interact however you want-you are the ones to deal with the consequences.Interfere with a strangers stop,and you are escalating the 'aggression'.It could turn a simple warning to 'slow down in a parking lot' into a ticket or worse.Your actions affect others not interested in becoming part of a cause. —bil
bigScrotum

@Bradley
Glad you finally got around to commenting on the interaction. Too bad it's an afterthought to my sharp criticism. So Brad, what do you find wanting in Jason's interaction.

I'll re-summarize my own eval: An idiot making a fool of himself.
Bradley Jardis

I think he came off too confrontational. That being said, it is a confrontation. Everything the police do is a confrontation.

Being too confrontational makes it easy for the police to write someone off as an asshole. Jason isn't an asshole, he's a good guy who cares about other people. Most police officers are good people doing a job that cares very little for other people. It is vital to show them the reality of that.
Zeus

Bil does sort of have a point. Not so much the "respecting the violent oppressor" thing but rather the "lack of clear communication" thing.

Pretty much all of us started out indoctrinated by the system. Sure, maybe we knew something was wrong with the system even in childhood but until we learned about the Philosophy of Liberty, the Non-Aggression Principle, Self-Ownership and Individual Responsibility, we pretty much ate up most of the propaganda the state spoon-fed us. Many of us once believed democracy was the holy grail, that it was fair, that stuff written down on paper and enforced by those shining beacons of law and order, the men in blue, was justice. Much of it we didn't question. And even when we did, we didn't apply consistent logic to it all. We were totally submerged in the illusion that is The Matrix.

Then we woke up one day. We got unplugged. And I'll bet it wasn't because some guy started berating you while you were "just doing your job". That only makes them angry, hardens them, turns them off to anything you have to say. Of course, maybe that's what you want. If you just want to piss them off, if that's your goal, then ignore this post. If you want them to understand WHY you're yelling at them, continue on…

If I run around shouting "Tyrant!" at some bureaucrat or whatever, they're just going to think I'm nuts. They're not going to consider their actions and apply reason. They're going to ignore me. Or maybe even clean my clock because I'm harassing them. When angry people shout at you, you tend to get defensive, especially if you have no idea you're doing something wrong.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree that you should stand up and say something when they aggress against others. I'm just saying that maybe WHAT you say could be more constructive. Maybe walk them through it, asking if they understand what they're doing is wrong and explain WHY it's wrong. Remember, they don't have the benefit of the Philosophy of Liberty that you do to guide their actions. They are often just as much victims of the system as those they harm. Don't let your anger at injustice and tyranny control you.

Maybe this tactic will work better, maybe it won't. Give it a try a few times and compare the reactions you get. That's my 2 cents.
Paul

I agree with Zeus and Brad.
Peaceful Man

I agree with Brad, Paul, and Zeus. Thank you for promoting a peaceful and effective path to liberty. Although I see little morally wrong with harassing some police, I find it very hard to conceive of this bringing more people to the ideals of liberty. The ideals of Liberty, just like most groups or religions, are spread through people voluntarily learning more about the concepts and most importantly wanting to be associated with the people involved. If you want to spread liberty, get people to love the people spreading it, rather than focusing so much on getting people to hate the so called "enemy", "opressors", "socailists", or "marxist's".

I don't want to get too off topic, but I would like to applaud the open carry litter pickup folks, volunteering at the soup kitchen, the various agorist events, and any and all the liberty folks getting out there and making friends in their community.

Keep up the good work,

Peace
thinkliberty

Paul, and Zeus. Bil, Peaceful man,

Please let me know when you've video recorded the police, like Jason has.

It's easy to play armchair activist and say how you would have done it better, but there is not an armed thug standing in front of you and your body is not flooded with adrenalin.

Your way might be better, but we will never know unless you can prove on video that it is.
http://beefree.me Peacemaker/aka Marku

Thanks Mr. Talley for the GREAT WORK! Love it, love it, love it!

You Rock!
Zeus

thinkliberty:

I need video evidence just to *suggest* that taunting a cop without explanation is unlikely to win them over or make them think critically about their actions? What happened to common sense?

I respect Jason and what he's done in the past with his activism, but that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with everything he does or refrain from discussing it. He's still free to do as he pleases, I'm just suggesting another possibility that may yield better results. It's called constructive criticism. If the whole point of one's activism is just for praise, I suggest they get another hobby because that's all it is at that point.

I mean, why expend all that energy getting activists together to share in our common beliefs and principles and work toward liberty if it's just going to be a fan club where discussion is frowned upon and disagreement is "burn the heretic" verboten?

Your argument is just another "Love it or leave it" cliche designed to silence dissent. And I'm not buying. Even the best activists aren't can-do-no-wrong messiahs beyond reproach. If Jason doesn't like my suggestion he'll ignore it and life will go on. Simple as that.
thinkliberty

Zeus,

My argument isn't love it or leave it. My argument is *show* everyone how to do it better.

I don't believe your way is better. The police simply won't listen to you. They will ignore you, just like they ignored Jason. You can prove me wrong by making a video and showing it to everyone.

Asking you to make a video showing your better way of doing things is not something that is designed to silence dissent.
Zeus

Maybe it's the limitations of words on the screen but — from my perspective — it sounded more like a "Put or shut up" kind of thing. My bad.

What you propose would be fine advice were my form of activism be to follow police around with a video camera. If the opportunity comes up, maybe I'll do just that, but I prefer non-confrontational outreach whenever possible. I would rather educate than exacerbate. I can't reach everyone, I tried my damnedest with WKBK's Cynthia to no avail, but I would rather do what I can to wake people up the way others woke me up. We need allies, not more (or more incensed) enemies.
bil

Thinkliberty-any links to your video? I do not go out of my way to make videos to prove anything to you or anyone else.I have my own ways of dealing with authority,and have been doing it for over 35 years.As I said,though,if he was not the one being stopped,he was interfering with the other persons interaction with the police.Try it when I am pulled over and see what it gets you.If everyone is sovereign,then by recording my stop,you are agressing against me,preventing me from dealing with it my own way.I will respond to agression against me be either the police or any self-appionted activist that interferes with my life.Keep in mind that unless you are the one being stopped,you are making the situation worse for the other person.Video that! —bil
thinkliberty

bil,

How will you respond to someone who video records a public official on a public street, if they happen to be near you?

Do you want to prohibit photography or videography in public places?
Skepticklish

Aside from the over-arcing rule that this is a peaceful movement, this is a movement of individuals and there are many different ways to handle a situation. Not everybody feels police are worthy of respect, and if you don't want to give it to them that's your business. Always trying to calculate "what will best progress the movement," is a fool's errand. Just do what's in your heart and speak the truth as you know it. Somethings will work, somethings won't. So long as there are enough of us trying we will get somewhere.
bil

Thinkliberty-where do you get that from??WTF do I care if someone videos an official near me?Video them,take pictures,record,throw eggs,I don't care.However,if I am in a situation where I could be charged and pay fines/go to jail,etc,and you interfere,you have infringed on my right to handle the situation my own way.Video it all you want,but if you start getting involved with what affects my freedom,be prepared to accept the consequences.If you and your friends want to stir up the cops when it involves you,and you are the ones that have to deal with it,then go right ahead.I have no problem with it.

If I happen to be standing near some official and you want to record,go right ahead.I never said I was against that at all.What I AM against is someone sticking their face and camera into MY business,when the results could affect me.I would consider it an agression against me and deal with it accordingly. —bil
thinkliberty

Bil,

What do you think is an appropriate response for you to take against someone who video records a public official that is interacting with you in public?
bil

It would depend on the outcome.If they interject themselves into my problem so far that it escalates MY problem,I.E. pisses the cop off so he takes it out on me,then I feel that whatever the response costs me was brought on by the filmer.The consequences would be based on that.If someone is filming the interaction and the cop ignores it,fine.It is not the filming that I object to.That is your right.What is NOT your right is to interject yourself into MY problem and cause more trouble for ME.I thought I made that clear-do all the filming you want-come to my house and film,I don't give a shit.But don't stir up those fuckers to the point where it costs me.I have my own way of dealing with them,and I have my own way of dealing with people that fuck with me.Leave it at that.

There may be perfectly good reasons for me to not want to be hauled out of my car and have it searched-think the guys in Greenfield right now.You bring that down on me,I will be pissed.The odds of this happening are not too great,but the point is,the event is between the cop and the driver.Unless you see an actual crime occuring,do not escalate it. I am not against people filming things they see cops doing that is above what they usually do.It is the interjection of the camera and 'reporter' into the incident to the point it affect the person stopped.Is there any part of this I can answer again for you? If you don't understand any of it,read both posts and then ask.Thank you. —bil
JEanpaul

You will never get through to a servant with this type-A aggressive attitude and behavior. Especially in the midst of a traffic stop. Where is all the video of attempting to communicate when they are not in the middle of something. I am not a cop but get jacked up by the errogant person with a camera. FAIL

Now done in the middle of the night, I could see how some servants may feel threatened and be jumpy to protect themself.

I suggest a less aggressive approach and maybe you will find that cops do have a friendly side…. most if not all do.