Tom the census guy dropped by for a friendly visit this weekend. I don’t receive US mail at the house so when Tom showed up it was my first contact with them.
We covered a number of different points including the census’s use to round up Japanese Americans into concentration camps during world war II, corruption, and government legitimacy.
The Census Bureau has been used by the DHS to identify Arab American neighborhoods as recently as 2002.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/30/us/homeland-sec…
Yeah, when he acts like the Japanese Internment is so inconceivable today, I think he's protesting too much. The gov't has a vicious little concentration camp for Muslims in Cuba right now, and federal politicians and courts totally support it. Before 9/11 I always used to wonder how the Japanese Internment could have happened in 20th Century America, but I don't wonder about that now. I could easily imagine the federal gov't doing something similar today to Muslims if its interventions in the Middle East provoke another attack anything like 9/11.
Sam, How about taking care of some old business? it’s not nice to cry wolf and leave a mess. Your credibility is on the line. bigScrotum on Mon, 24th May 2010 6:37 pm Sam, didn’t you retract the accusations made about this incident on the “Talkback” state radio show a few weeks ago? Given your paranoid conclusory and mistaken interpretation of the facts, and because this post has risen its ugly head to the top (a month later), why don’t you take the time to correct the record with respect to what really happened that night. A correction post at… Read more »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XtuPvwBa2U
Tell him that if he steps inside and volunteers to run "the animal circus gauntlet", that you will answer one "yes or no" question. …"And that's the best I can do."
LOL.
Can someone explain to me the harm in responding with how many people live in a residence, leaving everything else blank, and then sending it in? That's what I did, and I didn't feel like it was a violation of my personal liberties. I mean, that part *is* actually in the constitution: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the…
@Gabe:
1. The 5th amendment to the constitution says you have the right to remain silent. If you should choose to remain silent then you are following their "Constitution"
2. If I don't want anyone to represent me in Washington D.C, then I should not be enumerated for representation in the Census.
I don't think you did anything wrong, to give them the number of people there, Gabe. That's your choice.
It is a violation of your personal liberties for them to demand that information from you, however, and threaten to fine you if you don't give it to them. It'd be wrong for me to do it to you, and it's wrong for them too.
Thank you both for your replies. What I meant was: do you believe it's a violation or endangerment of constitutional and/or personal liberty to provide the number of people in the residence? @thinkliberty: (1) From the 5th Amendment: "… nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation". I'm assuming this is the part you're referring to. Now, granted, the government does many of these things anyway (especially the parts… Read more »
Gabe.
1. Has to do with depriving me of my liberty.
2. I can represent myself, do you need someone to represent you?
Hi Gabe,
I simply want to know how the obligation was created for me to follow what some other dead people wrote down and signed hundreds of years ago.
I don't believe in their system, and seek the creation of a more peaceful voluntary society based on consent. Lysander's work does a great job of explaining the details. I would really recommend the audio book or pdf depending on what you prefer.
Gabe, the fact that it's written in the constitution doesn't make such coercion right, any more than the fact that slavery was in the constitution made slavery right. Morality is not defined as whatever the constitution says. I agree that the government would be far better if it were to stay within the bounds of the constitution, and I think getting the government to respect those boundaries is a worthy goal, but even the constitution itself endorses a good deal of unacceptable behavior. In short, I believe the same moral rules apply to everyone (for example, to initiate aggressive force/violence… Read more »
@think:
Rather than merely address the word "representative", would you like to address the concept of "representative democracy"?
@Sam:
With what country is your citizenship associated?
@Paul:
Since when has morality become a societal tenet? Morals are a set of personal values. Perhaps you're thinking of ethics.
Because if you really mean morals, you're starting to sound like those bible-thumping republicans who go on and on, spouting off what they believe are "moral imperatives" about pornography and the definition of marriage.
Ethics or morals, however you want to refer to it, threatening aggressive violence against someone in order to extract money or personal information from them, is wrong behavior. I believe that's called theft, or extortion. Do you disagree?
If I were to write down on a sheet of paper, "I now have the right to take Gabe's stuff", or "I now have the right to demand personal information from Gabe", it wouldn't magically give me the right to do so — and neither does the constitution make it ok for those in government to violate the rights of their neighbors.
Who says I have to have a country of citizenship?
Am I only free to pick from a set of established masters under which I may be allowed to live?
Sounds like a pretty awful place.
JEEZUS FOOKING AITCH KEY-RYST-ON-A POPE-SICKLE STICK-EM-UP, THIS IS A RUBBERY!!!…Well what I just wrote makes more sense than you boneheads. *THINK*! When the census worker comes to your door, *THEY ALREADY KNOW WHO YOU ARE, AGE "RACE",etc…EVERYTHING! The *ONLY* real purpose of the census workers, is to confirm & verify what THEY ALRERADY KNOW ABOUT YOU!!! No, I really don't want to know just how stupid you people are! I spent 1/2 hour, mebbe 45 minutes, having a great chat w/the African-born College student census worker! Learned *TONS* about their WHOLE OPERATION! What useful intel did any of *YOU* fuck-ups… Read more »
Gabe, >would you like to address the concept of “representative democracy”? You mean the form of government where people vote in secret elections to extort money and freedom from their neighbors? It's barbaric, I don't believe in it. Do you believe you can legitimately have your elected representatives demand I answer their questions? What do you think gives them the right to go door to door and harass people for their "census"? If the Jehovah Witness come to my door and I tell them I am not interested in their beliefs they leave me alone. Your census takers that believe… Read more »
@Paul:
I agree with basically everything you wrote. However, call me daft, but I fail to see the connection between an enumeration of the number of people in order to appropriate proportional representation, and theft or extortion. I would like to understand. Perhaps you could help me?
@Sam:
Can you tell me if you live within the commonly-established borders of the US? And if so, within which state? Obviously, there is no penalty for declining to answer. 😉 Except, of course, the inability to continue our discussion.
@think:
Do you choose to vote in local, state, or federal elections?
@Gabe You're daft! Just kidding ;). I'm glad we agree on what I said above, and I like your manner of discussion. 🙂 If I don't give them my info, they threaten fines — that's extorting information. Furthermore, the census itself is paid for with money taken from me by force. I certainly agree that the census, on the scale of things the government does, is pretty innocuous. Still, it's not fundamentally moral/ethical behavior. Just think: What would happen if you did what they do? Answer: You'd be in jail. If they paid for the census workers with money obtained… Read more »
Gabe,
No. I don't believe voting secret elections or voting for someone to represent me.( I can represent myself.)
Vote fraud in NH makes voting here a waste of time.
Video evidence available here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDIFYSRffE4
and here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKQEQ7qHvgM
I just told the guy that came to the door that I had already sent in the form in another state.They had the wrong name anyway.They have my info,but it is all for a non-existant address.They always know where to find me,anyway. 🙁 —bil
@think: I too believe I can represent myself, when I go about my daily business. At no point did I make any claim to the contrary. Your continued claim of "I can represent myself" leads me to believe you either don't understand the notion of a representative democracy, or don't believe it exists, or both. So far you've claimed you won't answer the census questions because of your 5th Amendment rights, but then excoriated the same "form of government where people vote in secret elections to extort money and freedom from their neighbors" of which that very same 5th Amendment… Read more »
@Paul:
To be honest, I've never heard any first- or second-hand accounts of anyone being threatened or fined for not responding to the census. In fact, I don't think I responded in 2000, and faced no reproach.
Can you indicate where on the form any of these fines or threats are stated?
http://www.census.gov/schools/pdf/2010form_info.p…
Also, can you share with us how you know the source of the money used to pay for census workers? Or are you implying that the entirety of money collected by the government is illegitimate?
Gabe, >And without exercising your right to vote, you have no legitimate or recognizable chance to engender any change in the system you view as “barbaric”. I also find the motorcycle gangs and street gangs barbaric, I am not going to join them so I can try electing kinder and gentler gang leaders. Are you? According to your logic, you have no legitimate or recognizable chance to change any gang if you don't join them; However you can help engender the gangs if you join them, so you have a vote. You haven't given me any real reason to believe… Read more »
@Gabe- I need to understand your questions better to answer them:
"Can you tell me if you live within the commonly-established borders of the US? "
What is the US border? How was that created?
And if so, within which state?
Factually what is "the state of New Hampshire" in your words?
Now Gabe you didn't answer my previous questions, and this gets to be a discussion as you mentioned. If you want to continue our discussion, I need to you go back and answer the two questions you ignored.
Gabe has ignored every single one of my questions.
@Gabe http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/questions.p… Click the question, "do I have to fill the form in?" They certainly like to popularize the notion that there are penalties for not responding, both here and elsewhere. They also frequently say "It's the law". I have seen many first and second hand accounts of people receiving threatening notices and letters — although it seems that they do not often follow through on them. I just read an article on drudge stating that census workers may demand entry to your apartment from you landlord, while you are away, on threat of a $500 fine. Certainly the idea… Read more »
@Sam: Your questions were: "Who says I have to have a country of citizenship? Am I only free to pick from a set of established masters under which I may be allowed to live? " My reply was an attempt to clarify what you meant by your questions. If you live within the (governmentally-claimed) border of the US, and you were born here and are not a citizen of another country, you are de jure and de facto considered a citizen, whether you like it or not. As proof, how do you access this website, and the internet in general?… Read more »
It's only far fetch to you, because you believe in barbaric religion of statism. Do you believe in freedom of religion? I don’t believe in the religion of the state, do you think I should be thrown in jail when I don't pay tithing/taxes to your "elected" leaders? Should I be punished for not participating in your statist ceremonies? When I choose not to answer your census workers? Do they have the right to demand money from me and put me in prison if I don't pay? Do they have the right to kill me if I refuse to go… Read more »
Gabe:
> If you live within the (governmentally-claimed) border of the US, and you were born
> here and are not a citizen of another country, you are de jure and de facto
> considered a citizen, whether you like it or not.
You sound just like the religious zealots who ran the church of england:
They claimed every English citizen was required by law to belong to the Church of England and contribute to its support. It didn't matter if they had a different belief.
CENSUSNONSENSUS GENERATR: How many people live here, (and what are their various drug trips)? Snow white and the shaeven dwarfsh, and the eight divided septa. One "law abiding citizen" who does no drugs of any kind, carrying three circuit boards, for a thermite-filled helicopter Four khat-chewing terrorist ragheads Twelve illegal mexicans each carrying a one-hitter of schwag weed, each with a pickup truck full of scrap metal Three meth crazed destructive device salesmen Four AIPAC-supporting Jews For The Preservation of Nuke Ownership Thirty-six Chambermaids of the Wu-Tang each equipped with venom-dipped porcupine quills, and a radio-frequency-trained MEMS-laden Atrax robustus One… Read more »
"Do you believe in freedom of religion?" Yes. "I don’t believe in the religion of the state, do you think I should be thrown in jail when I don’t pay tithing/taxes to your “elected” leaders?" I would categorize that question as neither correct nor incorrect, but rather "not even wrong". "Should I be punished for not participating in your statist ceremonies?" No. I never said anything to the contrary. "When I choose not to answer your census workers?" Since when are they mine? You seem to be directing a lot of anger at me, and ascribing a lot of property… Read more »
Gabe, It's your government if believe in it. They are your census workers because they are being paid by your government to do what they do. If census worker come to my door that's okay the first time, (as long as they are volunteering to do it on their own free time and are not taking blood money as payment for it.) but when I tell them not interested and not to come back, I expect them to not to come back and harass me with the same message over and over again. Would you like it if a violent… Read more »
@Paul:
Makes sense. Reminded me of this, which I came across a few weeks ago:
http://jbs.org/blog/2010-census-legal-obligations…
@think: You've miscategorized me, yet again. I wrote that "…you are de jure and de facto considered a citizen". That was my assertion of what the government believes, not what I believe. I wrote that "without exercising your right to vote, you have no legitimate or recognizable chance to engender any change". At no point did I compel you to vote, implore you to vote, or claim that you "need" to vote, under threat of any kind of penalty or punishment. I merely asserted my belief that you have an ostensible right to vote, under the Constitution of the United… Read more »
>"do you believe it’s a violation or endangerment of constitutional and/or personal liberty to provide the number of people in the residence?" Yes. The number of people living at my house is my business. If you want me to tell you how many people live there, then don't belong to an organization that steals from, tortures and murders people. >"If you want to live on your own, with essentially 0 contact with others, that’s your right. You don’t seem to be doing that" You believe in a false dichotomy I don't want to live on my own, I want to… Read more »
What is this false dichotomy? What are the two sides you see? To be honest, it seems you're the one who believes in a false dichotomy. You seem to think there are only two choices: (1) "a voluntary society"; and (2) "government torture[s], murder[s] and extort[s] people". On the other hand, I tried to make an explicit reference to a continuum, by stating "I prefer to keep my obligations to others at a minimum". "I bought all the things I own with the fruits of my labor. " Did you pay for them with the "blood money" our corrupt government… Read more »
Gabe, I'll answer too, just so you can have a couple perspectives. 🙂 You seem to think there are only two choices: (1) “a voluntary society”; and (2) “government torture[s], murder[s] and extort[s] people”. I do think it's unfair to attribute support for current government behavior to anyone who believes in a state at all. A few here (probably thinkliberty) will disagree with me, but I absolutely consider minarchists & constitutionalists invaluable allies (I believe you're one, right?). Ron Paul, Judge Nepolitano (although he may actually be a voluntaryist), Stossel, etc, as well as the constitutionalist and minarchist components of… Read more »
@Paul: Frankly, thinkliberty strikes me as a bit of a hypocrite, as I originally pointed out in Comment #21. I'm not sure he/she actually read that comment though. ///I absolutely consider minarchists & constitutionalists invaluable allies (I believe you’re one, right?)/// Minarchist, Propertarian, Consequentialist libertarian, complainer … pick any one you'd like. None of them are one-size-fits-all. ///I don’t think it’s fair to criticize someone for using FRNs, any more than it’s fair to criticize someone for paying income taxes. The government has made it pretty hard to live and avoid these things./// And I don't think it's fair to… Read more »
And I don’t think it’s fair to live in a fantasy world where one draws comparisons between “motorcycle gangs and street gangs” and the man in the video above, or is led to write things such as: “Who says I have to have a country of citizenship?” “What is the US border?” “I don’t want anyone to represent me in Washington D.C.” “Factually what is “the state of New Hampshire” in your words?” “Am I only free to pick from a set of established masters under which I may be allowed to live?” …while at the same time being an… Read more »
I agree with you, when it comes to speaking out against what you believe is unfair, unjust, and unacceptable. However, in my opinion, the statements I quoted don't do that. They presume that the day has already come when these malfeasances have been eradicated. Consider the actual statements: What is the US border? Is that a real question? Does anyone with half a brain on this site not know the actual, incontrovertible answer to that? Factually what is “the state of New Hampshire” in your words? Again, I find this question at best bizarre, and at worst demented. Maybe that's… Read more »
@Gabe I can understand where you're coming from, and I absolutely see how these questions could be misinterpreted (I really didn't until you pointed it out). I think the reason some pro-liberty people respond to certain questions in this way, is they're trying to point out that they don't believe in the premises our current government are based on. I think just about everyone recognizes that there certainly is an organization calling itself the "US government", which enforces borders, recognizes citizenship, etc. For example: What is the US border?Is that a real question? Does anyone with half a brain on… Read more »
So here's where the hypocrisy starts to creep through, in my mind. Does the asker of these questions have a SSN assigned to them (even if they don't want one, or don't care to acknowledge it)? How about a passport? A state-issued driver's license? Yes, of course I see the logic in what you're trying to say, by asking these questions. Maybe I'm just more of a believer in "baby steps" than the authors of some of the other comments. I think he’s trying to make the point that borders are a legal fiction. What about the current government, in… Read more »
So here’s where the hypocrisy starts to creep through, in my mind. Does the asker of these questions have a SSN assigned to them (even if they don’t want one, or don’t care to acknowledge it)? How about a passport? A state-issued driver’s license? If he did, I'm not sure I understand why that would make him a hypocrite. Maybe I’m just more of a believer in “baby steps” than the authors of some of the other comments. That's probably an accurate description. What about the current government, in your opinion, is not a legal fiction? I know I'm the… Read more »
The prisons that your government will put free people in for victim-less crimes or not paying their extortion aren't a fiction. The guns they will kill peaceful people with for resisting being kidnapped and caged are not a fiction. But the authority they claim and their right to kill and/or cage peaceful people with are legal fictions. I used to use liberty dollars, but your government kidnapped the owner and stole all their silver and gold. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/arti… I guess I am a hypocrite when I use FRNs, because I don't want the government's armed thugs to kidnap and cage or… Read more »
Someone is mentally masturbating and didn't invite me? The shame to you! Funniness aside, I believe in no treason. The Constitution, which is a piece of paper that purports to create an entity called 'the United States of America', is just that, a piece of paper. Anything contained on that piece of paper is in reality nothing more then fiction, as if the works of Mark Twain, or Edgar Allen Poe can create a reality by their mere existence, The document referred to as the Constitution can not do that which no other collections of words on paper have done… Read more »
The prisons that your government will put free people in for victim-less crimes or not paying their extortion aren’t a fiction. I agree. The guns they will kill peaceful people with for resisting being kidnapped and caged are not a fiction. I agree. But the authority they claim and their right to kill and/or cage peaceful people with are legal fictions. I agree. I guess I am a hypocrite when I use FRNs, because I don’t want the government’s armed thugs to kidnap and cage or kill me. Not exactly. That's called looking out for yourself. The fact that you… Read more »
Yawn, If you think you can fix your government with voting then do it. You haven't given me any reasons to support or believe in what your government is doing. I've given you plenty of good reasons why no one should support your government. I don't believe that the government's authority exists. I said that the government's prisons, thugs and guns exist. You keep ignoring the things I've said over and over again. When you ignore the things that I type it get's boring. I guess the discussion is done, because you've ignored the things I've said more than once… Read more »
@Gabe
Ask and answer, do individuals have the right to life? Do they have the right to liberty? Do they have the right to property?
You're funny. Refer to Comment #21. It was 5 paragraphs long, the last of which was only 3 lines. You only responded to the last 3 lines. That's just one example. Who's ignoring who?
I never claimed I was trying to give any reason to support it. You claimed I was. I never did.
I keep repeating that I don't believe in your violent corrupt government, You keep failing to give me a reason why I should believe in it.
You claim your government is legitimate, but can't give me a reason why I should support it or believe that it's legitimate.
This conversation is stupid.