Ian Threatened With Arrest in Keene District Court

October 2, 2008 by Nick Ryder
Filed under: Personal Freedom, Thuggery, Video

Ian, attending a “hearing” under duress regarding the long-publicized couch on his lawn. The video tells the story much better:

http://speakoutdanville.org/bbs Curt Springer

I wonder if Carl Patten wanted to do a deal with Ian because he realized he might lose if Ian actually followed the process and stood up for his rights under the law.

This way he saves face and sets no precedents for his dealings with other residents.
Frederick B. Parsell

I don't know for certain, but I would suspect that Mr. Patten's motivation is not as conspiratorial as you seemingly suggest. Rather, it is my opinion that he prefers voluntary compliance, it is always the preferred way, on the part of those with whom he comes into official contact; Ian being no exception to that rule. Remember that Mr. Patten did not author the ordinance that the citizens of Keene pay him to enforce. He has no dog in this race; so-to-speak. The intent of the ordinance, as expressed by the citizens of Keene, is to protect neighborhoods from becoming dumping grounds, thusly reducing the respective value of their homes as well as providing against associated health and safety issues related to breeding grounds for rodents, EEE carrying mosquitos, discarded refrigerators that children have climbed into and become trapped, oil and gasoline leaking engines that could potentially polute the ground water, etc. If necessary, testifying in court to guard against these potentially life threatening and property devaluing behaviors is part of Mr. Patten's job. Noting the following words from the Free State Project web site, "I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property". One might argue, as I would, that the protection of life and property would include protecting against health related matters that arise from inappropriately discarded items and the value of perhaps the largest financial investment that an average person makes in their lifetime; their home. I hope my thoughts provide you with some food for thought.
Rance Muhamitz

You just want to control other people, Fred. Ian has offered a remedy, and really just wants to face his accuser and work things out. Exactly how does him paying a $200 fine protect the health and property of his neighbors? Mr. Patten is just a city revenue collector, nothing more.

Ian, well done! Next time you should bring your own security force in which documents must be handed through. That was absolutely silly!
http://webryders.net nick

Fred,

First, good job using your full name

I don't doubt that every law and ordinence has some "reason" it exists. The problem is that judges, prosecuters, and most juries don't take that reason into account when going after someone. They have one question on the mind:

Did the person break the letter of the law?

If yes, they're bad.

When courts don't look at situations on a case-by-case basis, we have situations where 18 year olds are going to jail for having relationships with 17 year olds. Fortunately many states are amending those laws, but no judge willing to think should have ruled against the 18 year old in the first place.

Is Ian's couch causing a health danger or financial loss? The potential to cause such a thing is not a valid reason to prosecute, or we'd all be in jail for the potential to hurt someone.
Ricky

<blockquote cite="Nick">.Is Ian’s couch causing a health danger or financial loss? The potential to cause such a thing is not a valid reason to prosecute, or we’d all be in jail for the potential to hurt someone.

Nick,

If there is indeed a complainant, other than just a city worker "looking out for the people", then it isn't the potential, it is a tangible claim of danger to health or property. In a legitimate society, and in case of a disagreement, this would have merits to be discussed with a judge. However, from what I've heard on FTL, there couldn't have been disagreement, as it was never even discussed with Ian.

I think Ian did have a victory here. He is effectively using non-violent resistance to show the violence and force inherent in the American legal system.
Slim

Fred,

I am not in Keene but I have visited the City and it does seem to be a nice place.

The town I grew up in started zoning for a similar reason (someone was frightened that a evil company would come in buy some property and make it a dump). I do think that you have the right as a property owner to not have your property polluted by a neighbor. If your neighbor is dumping oil in to the ground and it spills over in to your property you should have the right to take that person to some type of "court" and if it is proved that the neighbor polluted your property that neighbor should compensate you for the damage.

I also realize that Mr Patten did not write the zoning laws and probably never even thought about questioning the laws he is employed to enforce. I do hope that this situation stimulates Mr. Patten to step out of his shoes and take a objective look at what he is doing.

One thing I would love to ask Mr Patten is how far he is willing to infringe on my property rights. My father had a very weird piece of art in his yard and would he be willing to threaten me for having art in my yard? The art was actually a old toilet that had all the metal removed and in the tank and bowl filled with dirt and flowers were planted.
http://www.obscuredtruth.com SamIam

Hi Fred,

You make some good points, and I have a few things for you to think about:

Rather, it is my opinion that he prefers voluntary compliance, it is always the preferred way, on the part of those with whom he comes into official contact;

I agree completely with you here. Government would much rather do things voluntarily, which means the victim submits to the will of the government, without having to resort to force or physical violence, because that erodes the legitimacy of the state and connects the bureaucrats to the gun in the room that is government. They hate that because most believe what they are doing is best for everyone.

Remember that Mr. Patten did not author the ordinance that the citizens of Keene pay him to enforce. He has no dog in this race; so-to-speak.

There were police who enforced but didn't author the Jim Crow laws, does that mean they were right or morally justified in enforcing them? Mr. Patten does have a somewhat obscured dog in the race. It's upholding government's authority as the "decider". Denying such an obvious fact is willful ignorance.

The intent of the ordinance, as expressed by the citizens of Keene

You mean the citizens of Keene other than Ian and those who align with his views, because his rights are not as important as a majority of the very small minority that is the voting public.

Wait, did every statute get voted on Fred? To suggest that Mr. Patten is representing the public interest though government is absurd.

to protect neighborhoods from becoming dumping grounds. . . could potentially polute the ground water, etc.

All valid concerns. Here's what I see you completely missing Fred. What if the free market could do a better job than the government? I guarantee you it can, and you will begin to see it shortly.

I understand you are highly skeptical of this, and I have something I want you to think about. What if by holding a somewhat workable solution in place though coercion and violence, a more effective solution was prevented from surfacing?

What would it mean about Fred, if all this time, all the hours on the city council, the police force; What if all this served only to harm society by restricting the marketplace from solving these issues in a more effective manner. What if all this time you believed you were helping, you were really only serving to repress change, restrict the marketplace, and continue the harm your government's methods create?

Understand this Fred, and you will begin to understand your resistance to the "Free Staters"

If necessary, testifying in court to guard against these potentially life threatening and property devaluing behaviors is part of Mr. Patten’s job.

Well I hope you understand that we are just doing our job to bring about free market alternatives to more efficiently solve the same problems government does such a poor job at currently. I am committed to reducing the harm caused by government though it's antiquated inefficient means of dispute resolution.

Noting the following words from the Free State Project web site, “I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property”.

Yes, and that includes protecting life, liberty, and property from encroachment by government as well. The only way to permanently change that (i.e. keep government from growing out of control, which you have seen), is to eliminate the flawed concept of monopoly force in the marketplace. As you like to point out, name one 1,000 year old republic or democracy that hasn't grown out of control and collapsed. . .

One might argue, as I would, that the protection of life and property would include protecting against health related matters that arise from inappropriately discarded items and the value of perhaps the largest financial investment that an average person makes in their lifetime; their home. I hope my thoughts provide you with some food for thought.

Yes, and the most effective way to do that is by allowing the market to innovate, and try every possible route to the most economical, viable, efficient, and effective solution. You may think one small group deciding what's best for everyone and threatening others into compliance is an effective means. However, as the liberty activists begin sharing best practices (as the free market does naturally), your system of government will find it's self under siege from all sides, with the option of using force, backing down, or loosing it's legitimacy.

The choice of how long you fight is yours, as the voluntary society is evolving as I write. Thanks for your post Fred.

SamIam
elkheart

Thank-you, Fred. Did you borrow Eli's cojone??? Next, I'm going to write about when you screwed my landlord out of 2 months rent. My elderly, recently widowed landlord. *MY MOTHER*. Fred, truly, you are a *MOTHERFUCKER*. I truly pray that you always, *ALWAYS* see me first, before I see you, and that you run & hide from me. No, I'm no McClellan Brother.(Ref: "In Pursuit of Justice", in which Freddy-pie cries, "I'm afraid of them"!…) Go eat your gun, fuck-face…SIGNED: Bradford Hutchingson. Stay out of my life, you piece of shit…
http://speakoutdanville.org/bbs Curt Springer

Sure, I agree that voluntary solutions are best.

Still it strikes me that enforcing ordinances against a single couch on a lawn is not exactly LFOD, and it is not at all clear that it is actually against the cited ordinance.

I think Mr. Patten might have handled the complaint more skeptically. Also he could have told Ian that he could appeal the action to the building code board of appeals instead of going to court.
elkheart

Welcome, Mr. Frederick B. Parsells! I'm going to formally introduce all you Free Staters, & everybody else on here, to "Freddie-pie". I won't belabor the point by quoting the entire 15-page indictment of charges against Freddie, which I wrote up some years ago. First, read that copy of "In Pursuit of Justice", the *COMPLETE* history of the KPD. It's also available at the Keene Public Library. They have photos w/names, of the entire KPD in 1887, for example. *BUT*, it's as if Prohibition NEVER HAPPENED in Keene, or anywhere else. Why???….Remember, there are many powerful, rich, multi-generation families around here…The Clark family, who run Clark Distributors today, were bootleggers & rumrunners during Prohibition. I say, GOOD FOR THEM! Folks like the Clarks' helped end the idiocy of Prohibition. That they made big $$$ doing it is also fine w/me. But this is about Freddie Purse-hells. In "In Pursuit of Justice", ("IPOJ), freddie is a rookie cop. Some really bad things were happening in Keene, & it looked like the "McClellan Bros."(KPD cops, & brothers….) were at least allowing it to happen, if not actually doing bad acts themselves. Exactly what, who knows or cares, today???… *NOT ME*!…so freddie is testifying in a room w/the McClellans' present. Suddenly, his feet get cold, his pants get wet, & freddie flees the room. He claims the McClellans' were "scaring" him! That's a tactic he's used against me. He *PRETENDS* that I've done something "scary", so he can play "victim", & manipulate others into thinking that I'm "dangerous", thus justifying further bad acts on freddie's part against me. Also, despite years as a KPD cop, "retiring" as a "detective", (TRUTH: freddie was promoted to "detective", to cover his, & KPD's asses over some B.S. *THEN*, he was *forced* to retire, because not even KPD could keep covering up the BULLSHIT & *HAVOC* that freddie has inflicted on too many innocent Keene citizens.),years as a "counselor" on the Keene City Council, a brief gig w/the local Chamber of Commerce, freddie is now the *Housing Inspector* for "Keene Housing Authority". Along w/"Patnine", freddie has an *OBSESSIVE COMPULSION* to interfere with, & hurt peoples' lives. Sadly, I'm one of his "victims". What freddie probably won't ever understand, is the fact that for all the harm he's caused others, the person who has, & continues to, suffer the most, is FRED PARSELLS, HIMSELF! So it goes…Freddie likes to use lots of "wiggle words", "qualifiers", & "conditionals". He's probably not consciously aware of it…Look at his post above, #76191. Freddie writes many such phrases as :…I don't know for certain…", "…I would suspect…", "…seemingly suggest…", etc. Freddie can't give a straight, simple answer to *ANY* question. He is also deceptive in the extreme. When freddie claims that Carl Patten "has no dog in this race", he's lying. PATTEN *IS* "the *dog* in *this* race, freddie! Rance Muhamitz, in post #76193, above gets it 100% correct. Freddie is, *IS* a *CONTROL FREAK*…Fred needs to HEED God's instruction in Genesis, Chapter 1, verse 29. Try valerian root, or St. John's wort, Freddie. I think you're way, way, on beyond the help of Valium. So thanks for reading, & writing, everybody. Welcome, Freddie P… We're, (at least *I* am!) glad to have you on here. You really do have some good points, & I've even found a tiny seed of respect for you. You keep posting on here, & I believe that seed just might bear fruit, someday. (You still owe my Mother $1000.+, tho, asshole…)~Bradford~(P.S.: Freddie doesn't like *ME*, either, & I don't blame him a bit!…*(*GRIN*)…(~b~)…
bigdaddypaddy

All you liberal pussys need is a good ol' fashion N.H. ass whipping.Maybe then you can join the ranks as a proud citizen[black eyes included] of keene.Non-conformity will get you nowhere dumbass.
Shepherd

BIGDADDYPADDY, can I have a hug?
the_central_scrutini

any time you are ready, BIGDADDY. Or do you need to drink a few nasty ices, punch your kids and polish your Earnhardt shrine first? Many of us "liberal pussies" are born and bred in new hampshire, so take your angsty bullshit elsewhere. forgive us if we don't agree that citizenship is given at the behest of those who seek to threaten, harm, extort, or imprison. rather than making idle threats, come on down to Freedom Fest and whip our asses. i'll be waiting.
elkheart

…knick-knack, paddy-whack, give the dog a bone. Old boy bigdat-e-patty went-a fishin, & he sho' nuff cawt hisself a shepper, an a sen-trawl skroot-i-ney-zer! YASSUH! (…I'm a minority here. I'm a NH native…)…
the_central_scrutini

I am also a New Hampshire native.
bigdaddypaddy

Hey Central Stupidnizer…I'll send my sister on my behalf.I'll bet you are a N.H. native…..In your psychotic dreams. You liberal fairy!!
bigdaddypaddy

I'll bet you and your girl elkfart are both Slowbama supporters 2!!!!
elkfart

re-eeeeeal slow bama sporters, #3, PIGBLADDERBABY!…ps: please send yur sister, she promised me she'd douche this time, & maybe pick the scabs & let the puss run out…
zonsb

It's a court in commerce. Money changes hands. It's commerce.

The violation ticket is a wager that Ian (or someone) will come to court in dishonor and be surety for IAN. Ian could plead guilty for IAN and when the judge tells Ian to pay the fine for IAN, Ian should ask the judge, "Is that an order?"

When the judge responds,"yes", Ian should say, "great, I accept your order, and here's a bill for $1000 (one thousand dollars)".

Have you ever ordered something at a store and not been liable for a bill?
elkheart

OK, serious question here, folks. Anybody remember the year / case that the U.S. Supreme Ct. used to create the legal fiction of "corporate personhood"? What about "personal corporate-hood"???…Wouldn't that work the same way, only backwards??? Same reasoning, seems to me…
http://www.hwforums.com2174 Dennis Herrick

Hello Elkheart:

I ran into this article a few weeks ago. I think this is what you're looking for:

http://www.yesmagazine.org/article.asp?ID=1828

Specifically:

In 1819, the Supreme Court declared for the first time that corporations are entitled to protection under the Constitution. That case started in New Hampshire. Since then, corporations have been granted virtually all the rights constitutionally guaranteed to human beings. They use those rights to site polluting feedlots, dump toxic sludge, build big-box stores, and take municipal water to sell, all whether citizens want them to or not.

And it just so happens the article covers one of my pet peaves, water rights and home rule. Curt Springer just loves discussing these issues.
http://speakoutdanville.org/bbs Curt Springer

(yikes my first reply got lost somehow)
(had to eliminate some links)

The case referred to is The Dartmouth College Case. But it followed on a similar case, Fletcher v. Peck.

HERE is a very detailed account of the DC case.

The case was plead on behalf of the College by Daniel Webster DC1801 and my 3rd cousin 5 generations removed (probably everybody in NH claims to be related to Daniel Webster )

At the end of his formal argument, as Professor Goodrich afterward recalled, Webster stood silent for a time. Then, addressing the Chief Justice, he said:
This, sir, is my case. It is the case not merely of that humble institution; it is the case of every college in our land. … It is more. It is, in some sense, the case of every man who has property of which he may be stripped,—for the question is simply this: Shall our state legislature be allowed to take that which is not their own, to turn it from its original use, and apply it to such ends or purposes as they, in their discretion, shall see fit? …

Webster pulled out the stops and continued:
Sir, you may destroy this little institution. It is weak. It is in your hands! I know it is one of the lesser lights in the literary horizon of the country. You may put it out. But if you do so, you must carry through your work. You must extinguish, one after another, all those great lights of science which, for more than a century, have thrown their radiance over our land.
It is, Sir, as I have said, a small college, and yet, there are those who love it. …

My sentiments too BTW (my school).

These cases established that states can not abrogate contracts. I imagine most people coming to this web site would agree with that.

Dennis supports home rule, meaning that the people of any given locality should be able to gang up on people they don't like or a project they don't like and use the power of government to stop them. I don't think that would be supported by most people coming to this site.

Home rule does not exist under NH law.
elkheart

WHEN BLACK FRIDAY COMES, A PALE HORSE, RIDERLESS, STARLESS, & BIBLE-BLACK, & IN THE COURT OF THE CRIMSON QUEEN, IT'S JUST ANOTHER 21st CENTURY SCHIZOID MAN. I'M SO, SO, SO SADDENED THAT "judge-lette" eddy "jay-bird" burkah-halter HAS SHOWN HIS TRUE COLORS: JOSEPH STALIN RED, & NAZI-BLACK…NOW, I'M TRULY, TRULY, TRULY ASHAMED OF MY HOMETOWN, COUNTY OF "CHANCE", & STATE OF BIRTH…you're a disgrace, Burke. I BELIEVE THAT YOU SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE BENCH. STEP DOWN, HOWARD. STEP DOWN, ED.~fin
elkheart

Now, I can write what I originally sat down here to write. It's come to my attention, that I made a huge "TYPO" in Post # 76208, above. You're correct, Jack, I actually *did* write that, unintentionally. So here's my correction, & apology & explanation thereof…: I was using the local family name "Clark" as an example, only. I was in error in writing that the actual Clark family were "bootleggers" during prohibition, or that the current Clark Distributors business is an heir to "Rum-running" money…Yes, even I make mistakes, as I did here, and when they're pointed out to me, yes, I'm man enough to do the right thing, & make what amends I can. I'm sorry to all you fine local Clarks, for not more carefully proofreading my blogposts. I hope this clears up any lingering mis-understandings, or hurt feelings still out there, from my poorly writen, & poorly proof-read post. "This bud's for you".(please don't sue me, Mr. Anheiser, now that you're a *TRUE* BELGIAN CLYDESDALE!*grin*…~e~…P.S.:Re: Post#76361: Sorry I didn't see that link sooner. I'll post back, when I get the chance to surf over there. Thanks, Dennis!…& Thank-you too, Curt, for the Dartmouth College case link. Very much appreCIAted!…*grin*…~e~…SEMPER FI, FOLKS!
Eddie

Elkhart,

I’m concerned and curious about you. Can you please tell me a little about yourself? How old are you, what do you do? Can you tell me a little bit about your background and give me a synopsis of a typical day in your life?

Ed
theKINGofKEENE

what the fuck are you talking about, eddie???…that was over 10 months ago…i just saw this today – 10/19/2009…WTF???…..~ELKFART
theKINGofKEENE

duh.