Sam’s Detainment Makes Sentinel Front Page

May 17, 2009 by Nick Ryder
Filed under: News

Sam The Keene Sentinel, which was present on April 13th for the arrest of Sam, and 6 others, has finally published an article specifically about him and his in-jail protest.

Testing the system behind bars, Free Stater chides court, gains recruits
Sam Miller talks about his experience in the local court system during a visit at the Cheshire County jail in Westmoreland.
By PHILLIP BANTZ
Sentinel Staff
Published: Sunday, May 17, 2009 8:07 AM EDT

WESTMORELAND — A battle of wills is playing out within the cinder block walls of the Cheshire County jail in Westmoreland, where an activist has spent more than a month protesting a judge’s order that he identify himself to police.

John Doe walks into the jail cafeteria, a faded orange jumpsuit draped over his lanky frame and a folder of legal documents tucked under his arm. He sits at a stainless steel picnic-style table and when he smiles the tendons in his long, thin neck bulge.

Doe says he hasn’t eaten solid food since he’s been behind bars because he’s on a hunger strike. When he came to jail he weighed 180 pounds, and now he weighs 116, he says.

Court and jail officials know Doe’s real name — Sam A. Miller, a 33-year-old former telecommunications specialist from Texas who moved to Keene earlier this year to join the Free State Project. They have Miller’s Texas driver’s license.

But Keene District Court Judge Edward J. Burke has ordered Miller to remain held on $10,000 bail and will not schedule a trial until he gives the Keene police his name.

“While the prospect of the Defendant’s indefinite confinement is distasteful, the Court reiterates, however, that the Defendant holds the key to his release,” Burke wrote in his order.

It has already cost thousands of taxpayer dollars to keep Miller behind bars.

Miller has been in jail since April 13, when he was arrested for refusing to turn off his video camera in the Keene District Court lobby. An unsigned order taped to the wall banned photography in the lobby.

Miller, who also goes by Sam Dodson, was protesting the ban along with other Free Staters and activists with ties to the group, which aims to convince 20,000 “liberty lovers” to move to New Hampshire.

Police carried Miller out of the courthouse after he fell to the floor and went limp. Six others were arrested or given summonses for disorderly conduct.

Miller was initially charged with possession of property (his video camera) without a serial number, resisting arrest or detention, refusing to be processed and disorderly conduct.

Keene Police Prosecutor D. Chris McLaughlin stated in court documents that he plans to dismiss the charges of possession of property without a serial number and disorderly conduct, and add a charge of criminal contempt against Miller.

Miller’s attorney, Ivy Walker of Grafton, and other activists have filed several arguments with Cheshire County Superior Court and the state’s Supreme Court saying Miller’s rights are being violated and he should be set free or taken to trial. The courts have rejected some of the arguments, and others remain under consideration.

Meanwhile, Miller said he has already convinced about 10 of his fellow inmates to join the Free Staters when they’re released from jail. Many of the converts are older inmates, he said.

“Some of the younger kids here are a little hostile towards me. I don’t know if it’s their age or mindset,” he said. “A lot of the older people just seem to understand what I’m doing.”

Jail Superintendent Richard N. Van Wickler said Miller has a knack for recruiting other inmates.

“He seems to seek out offenders who have no purpose in life. Wherever he goes, he quickly makes friends,” he said. “There have been comments from other inmates about the Free State Project that they wouldn’t have made without him being here.”

Miller stands out from the other inmates not only because of his gaunt physique, but because of the reason he’s in jail. And that has helped attract followers, Van Wickler said.

“There’s a big difference between having your freedom taken away and offering up your freedom,” he said. “Sam has offered up his freedom and it has elevated him and allowed him to get his message out to others and, dare I say, he’s doing a good job of it.”

Miller recently had an interview with a reporter from The Boston Globe, and said he receives stacks of mail daily from people around the world who support his cause. Some want to move to Keene and increase activism in the city, he said.

While Miller speaks with The Sentinel, a middle-aged inmate wheels a cart of food trays into the cafeteria. He comes over and says he’s joining the Free Staters as soon as he gets out of jail. Then he gets back to work before the guards notice him speaking with Miller.

“A lot of prisoners want to fight the system,” Miller says. “They just don’t know how to do it. I think that’s one of the reasons they’re drawn to me.”

Miller has written extensively in online blogs about what he describes as squalid conditions at the jail, from overflowing toilets to broken air conditioners and stifling heat. His blog entries have received dozens of comments, some are critical of the jail and others are critical of Miller.

Van Wickler said Miller’s writings about conditions at the jail are “absolutely deceptive.”

He also stressed that jail officials are making sure Miller stays healthy, despite his hunger strike.

“We’re keeping a close eye on him because of his caloric intake,” he said. “He’s doing very well. If we thought his health was threatened we would put him in a medical observation unit.”

At a cost of approximately $64 per inmate per day, which is a conservative estimate, according to Van Wickler, at least $2,240 of taxpayer money has been spent to keep Miller in jail, so far.

Miller said he will not provide his name to expedite his release. He aims to pave the way for other activists to refuse to hand over identification to the authorities. If he bends and says his name, the time he’s spent in jail and the arguments he’s filed with the courts will be meaningless.

“This is completely about me challenging their system and their authority,” he said. “And as long as I’m in here, the word is slowly getting out.”

Phillip Bantz can be reached at 352-1234, extension 1409, or pbantz@keenesentinel.com.

http://www.keenesentinel.com/articles/2009/05/17/news/local/free/id_356129.txt

Underhill

There is no mention of the nine denials of writs of habeas corpus and the continued affirmation of Sam's indefinite jailing. There is nothing in the article allowing Sam to speak in any meaningful way about his reasons for being in jail.

Without letting him tell his story, this article makes it legitimately sound like Sam merely wishes to waste money that's not his and to stubbornly not cooperate with a wonderously fair and upright justice system.

It's just not true: the devil is always in the details. The mainstream press like the Keene Sentinel has no reason to be committed to journalistic excellence and so does not do a thorough job of investigative journalism and tell Sam's story truthfully. That's why the freedom of information on the internet is so important and is used by independent videographers, like Sam Dodson. People like Sam are threatening to the popular support of the State's unjust monopoly, and why newspapers are going out of style.
http://libertyactivism.info bile

1. 116 from 180 is impressive and a little scary. I'm 5'8" and 110lbs and that's underweight.

2. I'm curious as to why they didn't go into the name discrepancy. Changed because of divorce, adoption, trying to hide something? Usually people are concerned with those who do such a thing.

3. While the toilet and air conditioning thing are points to worry about and should be addressed quickly I do feel that some made a bigger deal out of it then necessary. Never the less I'd like to see Van Wickler further describe "absolutely deceptive."

4. Thank you Phillip Bantz.
Markus

I'd like to hear more about the jail conditions as I did't think Sam was exaggerating.

Sam seems dug in on his stance as do the tyrants. I wonder what's going to give.
u

who is sam miller…who is sam dodson…

deception???
http://www.freemindsmedia.org Toby

Let's get this story in front of more people:

http://digg.com/politics/Free_Stater_Jailed_Indef…
http://jailedactivist.info bile

u… that question was raised weeks ago. There are many reasons people change their name… it would have been nice if Bantz had asked about it.
http://festersden.blogspot.com severin

That picture says more than the article, it's a scary sight.

I hope there is a lot of pressure on Burke to let him out, and when he is "tried" to just issue time served and get this whole thing over with. Jail should never have been an option, if they didn't think he should have been filming in the courthouse the most that should have been done is to remove him from the courthouse (that should not have happened either, he should have been allowed to film). Then all that would have happened is a video of him standing outside of the courthouse describing the circumstances of his forceful eviction. Now as this story builds it gets worse and worse for the government, and whenever he is finally released, he will have much more to say than "they unjustly kicked me out of the courthouse".
Justin

Tyrants: We recognize your right to remain silent

Peaceful Citizen: I choose to exercise that right

Tyrants: Until you give up that right you will be forced to stay in prison.

Peaceful Citizen: If I have the right to stay silent, you have no ability to make me speak my name, therefore you are illegally holding me, and you are my CAPTORS. I will not eat so long as I am in your possession.

Tyrants: Your fate is your hands, speak your name and you will be allowed to go to step 2 in our labyrinth of justice. We are not holding you, you are holding yourself by not cooperating with us.
u

so whats the explanaton for his name change?
oh and

"He aims to pave the way for other activists to refuse to hand over identification to the authorities"

This is going nowhere…

So essentialy in Sams dream world, a child molester, rapist or murderer would not be forced to submit their name either?

I just think he should be using this energy elsewhere
http://jailedactivist.info bile

No one knows that I'm aware of. Perhaps his father who has posted on here before could enlighten us or has said why in the past and I missed it.

This is why I said it would have been nice if the author of the article would have addressed it. It was poor journalism.
http://12 oh and

i'm sure there is a logical explanation…it can come off as suspicous though
http://jailedactivist.info bile

Oh And…. if someone is innocent until proved guilty, is not required by law to give up his name during booking and they have his name anyway… what's the problem? They are the one's making a big deal out of this. They have his finger prints. His Texas drivers license, etc. They are holding him simply so he will obey and say "My name is Sam A. Miller."
http://jailedactivist.info bile

Looks like it was picked up by Fox 44
http://www.fox44.net/Global/story.asp?S=10376182

Edit: Actually by the AP
Sam's Dad

I did not realize there was much concern over Sam's name. However, I will tell you what I know but you will eventually need to get it straight from Sam himself.

When Sam became an activist and began producing his documentaries on government injustice from his personal encounters and experiences he began receiving phone calls from well wishers and other activists offering their support and assistance in anyway they could. He quickly found himself spending most of his free time on the phone and very little time on his photography and activism as his phone number was readily available from the phone company and internet. He was not trying to escape his well wishers and volunteers, but he simply no longer had the time necessary to pursue his mission. I believe he also thought about most actors having a screen name in addition to their real names. So somewhere between the two issues he began using Sam Dodson for all of his video work and activision.

The Dodson name is his mothers maiden name. His grandfather Dodson passed away a number of years ago and his grandmother preceeded him by several years, so Sam may have decided to use Dodson out of love and respect for his grandparents. The more recent video he did about his big change and move to NH earlier this year, he shot it at the old Dodson family farm, you know the one where he is chasing a black cow. The farm was subdivided between his mother and her two sisters and a brother. His mother and her brother now reside on the old Dodson homestead in East Texas.

Only Sam knows why he began using a public name. Once he gets out of prison up there you will have to get him to tell you why made that decision in life. But I suspect it is from some combination of all of the above.

Sam has absolutely nothing to hide from anyone regarding his name. I hope this helps.

Sam's Dad
Markus

For O and OH AND, to be concerned about his name change is like being concerned about what color underwear he was wearing when he was arrested. It doesn't matter.

They have his name, they have his Driver's License and P.O. Box number. If a murderer said he had a different name but you had his driver's license, which name would you go by? You need to look at what he did, his actions, not at what he is or is not identying himself as.

He's a member of the press. He was video taping in a District Courthouse, per the law. He was overtaken by men with guns who dragged him into a cage and are holding him there indefinately, for breaking no law.

Please don't waste your time with concern about his name, as it's not the real issue and I"m sure we'll find out soon enough, thanks.
http://jailedactivist.info bile

Sam's Dad… thank you for clarifying. I've been a supporter of Sam for a while and continue to do my part in getting his story out (http://sam.jailedactivist.info).

As you probably know PR is probably the most important component to activism of any sort and given many people tend to assume the worse of a person who's been placed in jail I've wanted the whole name issue cleared up so people like "u" would have less ammunition against him.

Not that the explanation given won't stop them from bad mouthing Sam or the FSP or the liberty movement… but it helps.

Thanks again.
Zeus

I've been going by "Zeus" both online and off for at least 18 years. I don't think anything of that either.

Those whom I know on a personal level know what my birth name is but many still call me Zeus anyway. I use either for business depending on the circumstances.

Ian uses the name "Freeman". Mark uses "Edge". Samuel Clemens went by "Mark Twain". Stephen King went by "Richard Bachman". It's not uncommon for people who work in creative jobs (especially film and radio) to go by another "stage name".

Using a pseudonym doesn't change your fingerprints or who you are as a person.

And I agree, Sam looks terrible in that pic. They really need to let him go so he can eat.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Oh and: No, the rapist or murderer should not have to submit their name either — they should be tried whether they give their name or not. You know, right to remain silent?

As a separate issue, are we sure the reporter got it right? Is Sam's weight really 116? Because if that's the case I am very worried. I remember him saying he was down to 160 — is it possible the reporter misheard?
Sam's Dad

Mark emailed me and confirmed it was a typo. He's at 160 or maybe a few pounds less. A good thing because I was on the internet making reservations to get up there.
cyberdoo78

"OH",

Murder and rape, and to some extent child molestation, are actual crimes, people have actually been harmed. In all of these cases, someone has been made to answer to them. A quick glance of State/County/City v Joe Doe cases will show this. Unlike an accused murder, accused rapist, or accused child molester, their right to a trial has not been stopped by simply refusing to say who they are, nor would it ever be stopped by refusing to give their name.

Under the law, your name isn't required. The only methods that are lawfully recognized to identify a person is photograph and finger prints. If a accused murderer, accused rapist, or accused child molester said a different name, do you think they would stop till he told him what their name is? No, the would move to trial with either the name that they have, or try him as John Doe.

What Sam did, he harmed no one. Today he is not harming no one, I would suggest that tomorrow he won't harm anyone as well.

The question that ought to be ringing loud and clear here is, if a accused murder, accused rapist, accused child molester are taken to trial without them giving their name, why isn't Sam? What is it about not giving your name combined with not harming someone that allows them to hold you till you die? Why is saying your name so important to these people in the first place? Why are they appearing to violate the law by holding him because he refuses to say his name?
http://www.dooms-day-device.com Puke

I thought that was a very good article.

Much better than the last one.
http://alongsidenight.ar.to/ Jim Davidson

What Sam calls himself is Sam's business, and Sam's choice. This whole business of "identification" is silly. It makes the state look stupid, and I'm glad that Sam is persistent with it.

Sam is this guy you can find in the jail. If you want to verify his identity, as a friend if that's the guy. This piece of paper issued by the state of Texas isn't Sam, it is just a piece of paper issued by a government.

If you don't trust Sam to tell you he's Sam, then why should you trust the state of Texas to tell you he's Sam? You've multiplied entities unnecessarily. If Sam can't be trusted to tell YOU who he is, why do you think that he told TEXAS who he is? And who are these incompetent people in Texas who issued this document that has his name wrong? Are you friends with any of them? I lived in Texas for 20 years, and never trusted anyone who worked for the government there, with good reason.
http://alongsidenight.ar.to/ Jim Davidson

Previously, I posted that Judge Edward Burke lives at 56 Chapman Rd in Keene, NH. I continue to believe that's so. This point is confirmed with a post to NH Underground which shows up when one searches on his name and that address.

Why should he get to sleep? Seems like he wants to keep Sam in jail without charging him with any actual crime (mala in se) and even the trumped up mala prohibitum charges have evaporated.

Sam wasn't in possession of property without a serial number, as everyone now knows (except the author of the above hit piece, perhaps). Rather, Sam, like any other video professional, masked the reflective materials on his camera to help control the lighting. There is no law against masking off the serial number with tape.

There is this assertion that an unsigned order against video recording appears in the lobby, but there is also a clear state law that says that it is legal to video even in the court rooms. But Judge Burke was embarrassed by what showed up on Youtube after Burke was mean and idiotic toward Ian Freeman. So, of course, we have an unsigned order taped to the wall of the lobby asserting an unnatural and idiotic mala prohibitum ruling.

So, go by his house and lean on the horn. Burke wants looking at, especially in the early hours of the morning.

Presumably, Keene police prosecutor D. Chris McLaughlin knows that he cannot prove a charge of disorderly conduct, and he also knows that Sam has spent far more time in jail than he would have to serve even if he were convicted of disorderly conduct. But, like an evil bureau-rat, McLaughlin wants to hurt Sam some more, and so he connives with Burke to issue a "criminal contempt of court" citation.

Cleverly, the system is rigged so no one ever has a chance to defend themselves against criminal contempt of court. So, they'll keep Sam in prison until their system of government is voted out of office, or overthrown some other way, or so they imagine.
cyberdoo78

Jim, nice.
sasa

sam needs a wikipedia entry
http://speakoutdanville.org/bbs Curt Springer

Jim,

I live in NH about 100 miles east of Keene.

One nice thing about NH is that officials are very accessible. It is rare for them to have unlisted numbers and such, even those higher up in the food chain.

Of course if people start harassing them as you propose, that will end. Leaving aside the possibility of criminal liability for such actions, I just don't think it will help the image of FSP people in Keene, and it will make it harder to reach some sort of understanding with the court system about various policies and regulations.
charley hardman

There is no mention of the nine denials of writs of habeas corpus [...]

from the article:

Miller’s attorney, Ivy Walker of Grafton, and other activists have filed several arguments with Cheshire County Superior Court and the state’s Supreme Court saying Miller’s rights are being violated and he should be set free or taken to trial. The courts have rejected some of the arguments, and others remain under consideration.

Mark uses “Edge”. [...] It’s not uncommon for people who work in creative jobs (especially film and radio) to go by another “stage name”.

nor is it uncommon for someone who assisted in murdering another to change his name in the interest of foiling google searches, etc.

mark's inclusion in your example list is almost funny, whatever his reason(s) for going by "Edge", none of which i know. i know, however, that he attempted to keep that part of his past a secret.

generally, using a pseudonym raises more questions than not, for sensible reasons. and no, illogical fools who may read this, i am not opposed to pseudonyms, nor arguing against them. however, strangers can hardly be expected to not be skeptical of them on the margin. the "well these guys used fake names" retort fails even harder when including in the list an admitted (after being outed) assistant murderer.
Zeus

nor is it uncommon for someone who assisted in murdering another to change his name in the interest of foiling google searches, etc.

Obviously a pointed barb at Mark as you reveal below. And even though you admit below you have no idea why he goes by Edge, you weave together a motive pulled directly out of your ass.

mark’s inclusion in your example list is almost funny, whatever his reason(s) for going by “Edge”, none of which i know.

Hmm. Could it possibly be that HE'S A RADIO SHOW HOST? Oh, you didn't know that radio jocks use fake names all the time? Yeah, one guy I knew went by "Freak". A guy in Chicago went by "Turd". Mark previously went by "Manwich". I go by "Zeus". Maybe you should Google that before conjuring up evil motives for wanting some privacy?

i know, however, that he attempted to keep that part of his past a secret.

"Attempted" how? Did you two have a daring rooftop chase where he tried to silence you? Or did he just not bring it up in polite conversation like an old person bringing up their irritable bowel syndrome?

I once knew a guy who would tell me he was a witch. I think he wanted a reaction out of me. Eventually, I had to tell him, politely, that I heard him the first dozens times, didn't give a flying rat's ass and to kindly STFU.

the “well these guys used fake names” retort fails even harder when including in the list an admitted (after being outed) assistant murderer.

First of all, Mark didn't murder anyone. He was a dumb teenager who got talked into doing a robbery by an older kid who ended up murdering his former boss. You already know this though and yet you still vindictively label him "assistant murderer". Talk about a dick move.

Second, this "outed" shit is a bunch of nonsense.

Mark's past would have come out anyway but some dipshit detective wanna-be decided to reveal it ahead of time so they could point fingers and cry "WITCH!" and burn him at the stake publicly.

The AMP section on the FTL website promises to reveal a handful of secrets about the hosts and add new features (like the studio cam) when the AMP donations reach certain amounts. See that $10,000 End Goal? "Commercial Time Reduction, And Secrets Revealed". That was there long before Mark's history was revealed and Ian has also already revealed something on air. Wanna know what it is? Google it. I'm not doing you any favors, ass.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it, pal.
charley hardman

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it, pal.

that should follow a refutation.

And even though you admit below you have no idea why he goes by Edge, you weave together a motive pulled directly out of your ass.

i told the truth, as usual. i do not know why mark used a pseudonym, nor if concealing his past had anything to do with it. however, neither do you know, unless you are he, that it wasn't done to foil google searches. given that he kept it secret (more on that below), it remains a reasonable possibility to posit.

Hmm. Could it possibly be that HE’S A RADIO SHOW HOST?

yes. now back to you, smarmster: Hmm. Could it possibly be that HE ASSISTED IN A MURDER?

Oh, you didn’t know that radio jocks use fake names all the time?

that sort of inane fallacy spewing is precisely why i included a note for fools. will not repost.

“Attempted” how?

apparently, by not talking about it on a show where it was relevant as hell. if you really want to pretend it wasn't intended as a secret, better to not provide as evidence the assertion that the information was intentionally withheld until a certain criterion was met.

I once knew a guy who would tell me he was a witch. I think he wanted a reaction out of me. Eventually, I had to tell him, politely, that I heard him the first dozens times, didn’t give a flying rat’s ass and to kindly STFU.

powerful stuff! powerfully irrelevant.

[...] and yet you still vindictively label him “assistant murderer”. Talk about a dick move.

since he assisted in the murder of ballapuran umakanthan. i call him, correctly, an assistant murderer. if one would prefer calling him assistant to the murderer, for example, that doesn't describe accurately enough his close involvement in the murder. propose something more accurate than my term and i'll use that instead. murder cleanup man? perhaps. let me know.

Second, this “outed” shit is a bunch of nonsense.

obviously, it is not. it was a secret. you acknowledge it. you also assert that it was revealed before the intended time. that, obfuscator, is being outed.
http://alongsidenight.ar.to/ Jim Davidson

Everyone has choices to take, Curt.

But, let me ask you, given this high level of accessibility, why won't Burkee-baby allow video in his court room and in his lobby? It doesn't seem like this particular judge is being especially accessible.

Will you lament Sam's death in prison, or will you favor him being force fed through a tube in a hospital? Sam isn't accessible to his friends. So, I'm not sure what the benefit of letting Burkee-baby get a good nights sleep would be. Who benefits?

What is the criminal liability for honking your horn? Are you saying that people don't ever honk their horns in New Hampshire? Seems unlikely. Inconsistent with my many trips there. Are you saying that it is against the law to honk your horn at 03:30 in front of Burkee-baby's home?

Perhaps the police of Keene would like to dedicate a squad car to sit in front of the judge's house and charge "criminally" or with a civil 'traffic ticket' for honking their horns. Is there to be no resistance to Burkee-baby killing our friend Sam? Is there no price for patriots to pay, either?

But in that event, one could take an air horn on foot to a location around the corner, set it off, and run away. With a little care, one could set a boom box off by timer, or by remote control. Hide it up in a tree. Drive 'em nuts.

Not to mention the many things one can do to a police cruiser that is just sitting there. Caltrops anyone?

Perhaps what you are thinking is that there are criminal penalties for me *proposing* acts of civil disobedience, which I do in my own name, of my own free will. In which case, by all means send your thugs around, let's dance.
Lpviper

Jim

Calm down dude

I suggested a picket party with camera coverage and media exposure during the day. Signs and such. That seems a bit more reasonable than caltrops. A hundred or so folks with signs being generally loud and chanting anti-tyranny slogans should suffice for now, don't you think?

I can see why Paul and Zeus are concerned. Your rantings could be misconstrued to rub off on all. While I don't specifically disagree with anything you are saying, caltrops excepted, why are you putting all this in a public forum? What is to be gained?
Zeus

i told the truth, as usual. i do not know why mark used a pseudonym, nor if concealing his past had anything to do with it.

And yet you attributed his reasons for doing so as evil without actually knowing them.

however, neither do you know, unless you are he, that it wasn’t done to foil google searches. given that he kept it secret (more on that below), it remains a reasonable possibility to posit.

I talk to Mark every so often on the phone and IM him all the time. I do business with him and Ian from time to time. I'm sure Mark can answer this himself should he choose to, but I know Mark well enough to know that Google searches likely never crossed his mind. He is much closer to being a Luddite than an internet wizard.

yes. now back to you, smarmster: Hmm. Could it possibly be that HE ASSISTED IN A MURDER?

Again, this is a fallacy as you well know. He did not know a murder was going to take place. The actual murderer tricked a teenage Mark into coming with him, telling him it was a simple robbery. I'm not saying he was an angel, he obviously intended to be a thief that night, but he wasn't a murderer. He had no intention of killing anyone, didn't know it was going to happen and did not personally commit the act. He was a dumb teenager in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong person and he's paid for that mistake and made something of what's left of his life.

Mr. Umakanthan was strangled to death by the real murderer, a former employee. The real murderer did ten years in prison and went on to do more crimes when he got out. By the time he himself was murdered earlier this year, he was also a registered sex offender.

Of course, this is all meaningless to you because you've already made up your mind regardless of the facts. You're hitman and you're here to do a job. It's only a question of motive. Is it your own or did someone else put you up to it?

that sort of inane fallacy spewing is precisely why i included a note for fools. will not repost.

I work in radio. Unless you can say the same, I think my years of experience in the industry trump your lack thereof.

apparently, by not talking about it on a show where it was relevant as hell. if you really want to pretend it wasn’t intended as a secret, better to not provide as evidence the assertion that the information was intentionally withheld until a certain criterion was met.

Whether it was or wasn't, it was his to reveal when and if he chose to. Do you regularly go around telling strangers all your personal issues? If not, why are you keeping all that a secret? You should just go around telling everyone every last thing there is to know about you, especially the stuff you'd rather not be reminded of on a daily basis by a bunch of jackasses who want to twist it and rub your face in order to satiate their vindictive egos.

since he assisted in the murder of ballapuran umakanthan. i call him, correctly, an assistant murderer. if one would prefer calling him assistant to the murderer, for example, that doesn’t describe accurately enough his close involvement in the murder. propose something more accurate than my term and i’ll use that instead. murder cleanup man? perhaps. let me know.

"Dupe" or "Fall Guy" would both be appropriate titles.

obviously, it is not. it was a secret. you acknowledge it. you also assert that it was revealed before the intended time. that, obfuscator, is being outed.

No, it's "jerks meddling in someone else's business and slapping themselves on the back for damaging a person who already paid the price for being in the wrong place at the wrong time with a homicidal maniac who lied to them".
http://alongsidenight.ar.to/ Jim Davidson

What difference does it make whether Ian or Mark or Zeus or Edge or Jane Roe or Cher or Bono use the names their parents gave them, or the names the state has assigned them on identification papers?

We aren't talking about all those people on this thread, we're talking about Sam. And to a significant extent about Burkee-baby in the context of "The oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely…the law’s delay, the insolence of office and the spurns

that patient merit of the unworthy takes…".

Or do they teach Shakespeare in your misbegotten pubic schools?
Lpviper

I went to pubic school once

It was gay (no offense to the gay people, it's an expression and I can't give it up)
http://alongsidenight.ar.to/ Jim Davidson

"Calm down dude"

Why? You've been calm for 30 days now, while Sam has rotted in jail, without the opportunity to defend himself in court, without a meaningful charge against him, without a reasonable bail. Is infinite bail not sufficiently excessive to get you upset? Or are you not the type to get upset by injustice.

There can be no peace without justice.

"I suggested a picket party with camera coverage and media exposure during the day. Signs and such."

Isn't that sweet. What a pretty idea. You wouldn't want to make your protest in a fashion that was unfashionable, and that failed to provide you with publicity, would you? Gosh.

There can be no justice without freedom.

"That seems a bit more reasonable than caltrops."

And how reasonable is it for Sam to be in jail for 30 days without being charged with any actual crime? Without having an opportunity to defend himself in court? Without a reasonable bail for his release? What is this fixation with the identity state that you love better than caltrops?

There can be no freedom without weapons.

"A hundred or so folks with signs being generally loud and chanting anti-tyranny slogans should suffice for now, don’t you think?"

Me? I don't agree at all. I don't see why that would do any more good now than it ever has in the past. Were you thinking of stopping the war in Iraq that way? Maybe getting some of that peace dividend we were promised? How's that been going for you?

"I can see why Paul and Zeus are concerned."

Concerned about what?

"Your rantings could be misconstrued to rub off on all."

Really? Well, isn't that extraordinary. I'm using my own name and my words are my own. I defy you to claim them as yours, milquetoast. If there is anything wrong with vehemently objecting to Sam's incarceration, perhaps you should tell me what is wrong about it. If you can.

You just don't want to be as hostile toward oppression as I want to be. Because you want your chains to set lightly on your shoulders, and your manacles to be a little open. I want your chains to set heavily upon you, and your cuffs to chafe and bind. I want you to suffer under the oppression of the tyrants, and I want history to never recall that we were once fellow countrymen.

"While I don’t specifically disagree with anything you are saying, caltrops excepted, why are you putting all this in a public forum? What is to be gained?"

Why not? What's to be lost?

What's wrong with caltrops? What have I said about caltrops that is so offensive to you?

The price of freedom has always been the blood of tyrants. You don't want to shed the blood of anyone.

So, what do you want to do? Sit idly by with your thumb firmly entrenched in your rectum while our friend Sam dies in jail?

Wouldn't that tend to shed the blood of a patriot without ever troubling the tyrant for a night's sleep?

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter.
Lpviper

Hm. Indeed. Why don't you discuss this with the man who has been wronged and see if he agrees with your approach?

Go to mail-to-jail.com and send him a note. I'm sure he will post a response here for your perusal.

I will not presume to guess at what he will say, but for myself I will stick by what I said above.

There may eventually be a time for your brand of activism, Jim, but now is not it. Even at the time of the Revolution in the 1770s, public approval for it was about 10 percent. The current liberty movement doesn't have that. The brainwashing of the public at large is too extensive for that.

So we are left to spread the message, with love and understanding, and peaceful protest. And if it doesn't work, then in time we will have the public support necessary to take firmer action.

Thanks
charley hardman

And yet you attributed his reasons for doing so as evil without actually knowing them.

generally, i do not attempt to refute straw men. will not here.

Again, this is a fallacy as you well know.

had mark never known of the murder, i would be wrong in labeling him an assistant murderer. you are wrong to assert unconditionally that mark didn't known he was going to participate in a murder, just as i would be to assert he did know. however, according to mark, he learned of the murder and then assisted the murderer in completing the act (an act you'll insist was over when the victim died). frankly, i'm surprised anyone attempts to minimize mark's involvement, since it only screws him in the long run by highlighting what he's already admitted — a damned scoundrelly record.

, but he wasn’t a murderer.

if i knew he was a murderer, i'd have called him a murderer.

He had no intention of killing anyone, didn’t know it was going to happen [...]

you allege. you don't know. i don't know.

[...] he’s paid for that mistake [...]

you had to go and mention something you wisely edited out of your previous comment. as i wrote in my linked blog post, this is perhaps the most sickening part of his post-outing disclosure. ian touched on it recently, and i linked to mary ruwart's book on the subject. discussion of the subject (restoration) during mark's disclosure? far as i recall, not a syllable. it was all about his submission to the state on a subject roundly trounced routinely by voluntarists and even "libertarians". this is as far as i recall. if i'm wrong, i need to correct my blog post. will not be listening again to that show without solid indication that i should.

By the time he himself was murdered earlier this year, he was also a registered sex offender.

Of course, this is all meaningless to you [...]

that part assuredly is.

[...] because you’ve already made up your mind regardless of the facts.

as demonstrated here, my mind regards the facts.

You’re hitman

i'm a hitman, but mark is not an assistant murderer. more almost funny material.

Is it your own or did someone else put you up to it?

i assume that's only a rhetorical question.

I work in radio. Unless you can say the same, I think my years of experience in the industry trump your lack thereof.

LOL (literally). you have major reading/logic/reality problems.

Whether it was or wasn’t, it was his to reveal when and if he chose to.

false.

Do you regularly go around telling strangers all your personal issues?

that would be impossible, which i suppose is the reason you asked it. however, if someone talks about prison with me, i will likely ask if that person's ever been imprisoned, while in the same sentence noting that i have. i know this because i've done exactly that many times. i can think of no action of mine — embarrassing, shameful, or otherwise — that i will not raise with a stranger or friend if a topic along those lines arises in conversation. in public, there are some things i will not discuss because they contain information potentially harmful to another. you have already asserted, by logical transfer, that this was not the case with mark and the murder with which he assisted.

“Dupe” or “Fall Guy” would both be appropriate titles.

perhaps appropriate, but not nearly so much as "murder cleanup guy". suggest another if you like. i will switch to anything more accurate than my suggestion.

No, it’s “jerks meddling in someone else’s business [...]

knowing what mark did is wholly relevant to his ostensible position as a voluntarism exponent.

[...] who already paid the price [...]

far as i know, you're wrong again. if otherwise, i'd like to know to amend my linked blog post.

[...] for being in the wrong place at the wrong time with a homicidal maniac who lied to them”.

just before he allegedly engaged body disposal & STFU mode. or did i get that wrong? let me know.

What difference does it make whether Ian or Mark or Zeus or Edge or Jane Roe or Cher or Bono use the names their parents gave them, or the names the state has assigned them on identification papers?

We aren’t talking about all those people on this thread, we’re talking about Sam.

threads are not confined to the original direct subject, nor should they be. you're right to stress sam's situation, as you are right to discuss the crimes against him without the fantasy brainwashing affecting so many supposed liberty advocates.
lost

this "movement" has no unity or direction whatsoever
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Look, can we drop the whole Mark thing already?

No question, what he did that day was evil and rightfully criminal. He, unlike many who have done evil things, has managed to reform his life.

He now works to prevent people from commiting violence which is not in self defense.

Can you say the same?

P.S. Lost, it's about working to end the initiation of force against people who have not harmed others. This is an open forum, so no doubt you will see some healthy debate
lost

there is absolutely no structure and the only constant is conflict of views and objectives…
charley hardman

this “movement” has no unity or direction whatsoever

the beauty of voluntarism is that no cooperation whatever is required to practice it. beware "unity".

Can you say the same?

you just said, "Look, can we drop the whole Mark thing already?", then you're doing your usual fallacious dreck routine for me to compare myself to mark? listen closely, morons who infest the comments on this site: what only i do, have done, haven't done, or do not do, is utterly — without exception — not necessarily relevant to a discussion of someone else — even if the subject is hypocrisy. such retorts may be internet forum fallacy #1, perhaps second only to throwing the T word at an opponent in a runaway maneuver apparently invisible only to the runner.

yes, this pains stupid people. it's tough. they reach inevitably for the "must have intractable ephemeral dick-measuring contest" button. why? because it's about as illogical (intentionally) as it gets. so far as i've seen on this board, it's used here solely as a diversion tactic when a pet friend of the FK squad is discussed negatively. it's used even to ignore valuable advice.

as i've said before, assume i've done nothing for liberty. assume i'm an average statist. relevance to what's being discussed: none. for the purpose of this thread, assume i'm a murderer. relevance to mark's behavior: none.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

You're right, it's irrelevant. I didn't mean to impugn you. My intent was to note that it is unfair to judge a man by his past actions, which he has since reformed. Therefore, I wish we wouldn't go round and round about Mark. I do not think anyone considers his actions as a teen moral or justified. I don't think anyone believes he would commit those same actions today.
http://alongsidenight.ar.to/ Jim Davidson

"Why don’t you discuss this with the man who has been wronged and see if he agrees with your approach?"

I don't because they aren't his actions to take. They aren't his words to choose. They are mine.

I choose how to respond to tyranny. If Sam doesn't like it, let him say so. But that certainly won't stop me.

I have only one way to guide my feet, and that is by the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the Keene judiciary or the United States government for the last few years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves.

Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort.

Why has an entire combat brigade been stationed in the USA if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can one assign any other possible motive for it? Has the USA government any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of military power here? Nope.

They are meant for us. They can be meant for no other. They are here to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the government have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument?

Many of us have been trying that for the last sixteen years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain.

Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, deceive ourselves.

We have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the seat of power, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the bureau-rats and politicians.

Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the seat of power!

In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free– if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending–if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained–we must fight! I repeat it, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

You tell us that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a police officer shall be stationed in every house?

Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? We are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power.

Three hundred millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles with us. The battle is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave.

Besides, we have no choice. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard in Keene! The war is inevitable–and let it come!

It is in vain to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace– but there is no peace. The war is actually begun!
charley hardman

I choose how to respond to tyranny. If Sam doesn’t like it, let him say so. But that certainly won’t stop me.

this subject puzzles the hell out of me — how the prime message of voluntarism is precisely that the state is warranted no pass in its crimes, yet most voluntarists demand in so many ways that exactly such a double standard be enacted with regard to the state.

months ago i addressed this subject on this board, and was immediately pooh-poohed by ian as though it's to be fantasized away; i was outta line!

these are violent career criminals we're talking about, and yet they're supposed to be treated as better than even one-off burglars — by the same folks who advocate open-carry for self defense. yeah? well they're fucking up one of our own, and he's being held hostage in a known location. why? because he won't fucking say two words.

cowardice, and the thirst for physical survival — despite mental death — should be addressed openly. same with insanity and psychosis. so much of the treatment of these felons reminds me of that guy who sang to grizzly bears, figuring that would cut it.

for the record, i'm first in line admitting cowardice and fear for my skin.
John Delano

Charlie, my understanding is that Mark assisted in moving the body after the fact. Yes it was wrong, but is that murder? Is it assisting a murder? Assisting a murderer is not assisting a murder if it is done after the fact, even if it was an attempt to cover up. I am not making excuses for what he actually did. Maybe he did know more about what he was walking into. Maybe he actually did more than what he said. I don't know that we can just assume he did. The state of Florida may call that "murder", but I think we should avoid using statist definitions, meaning avoid using "murderer" if the above scenario is actually what happened.

If my understanding of the story is wrong, feel free to correct me.
charley hardman

Charlie, my understanding is that Mark assisted in moving the body after the fact. Yes it was wrong, but is that murder? Is it assisting a murder?

complete the story as known, objectively, then let's talk. let it all out. it's already been mentioned by someone else here, so it won't be difficult for you to review and include. i want to hear you assert it.

Assisting a murderer is not assisting a murder if it is done after the fact, even if it was an attempt to cover up. I am not making excuses for what he actually did.

by leaving out what he did, you are.

I don’t know that we can just assume he did.

of course, we should not.

, but I think we should avoid using statist definitions,

i agree — only one reason i didn't swing for the easy getaway-car "murder" angle dodge, and won't.

according to mark he was, at least, an assistant to the murderer. however, that label leaves room for space/time dissociation, which is why i don't favor it. for the same reason i also do not favor "murder cleanup guy", though it's more accurate.

the hurdles leaped to paint the event favorable to mark are perhaps the scariest part. i was appalled when i listened to that 29 jan 2007 FTL episode — not because mark did such a thing, but because without question it was obvious that the most important aspect of the incident was how it was messing up mark's situation and, indirectly, ian's. IMO that indicates the same narcissism which drove the original incident and, yes, mark's very presence at it and later action.
Paco

I hope Sam can keep it up, though it's terrible that he has to. If only there were more of us who would adopt the "never negotiate with terrorists" policy, this systematic violation could not be maintained.
Lpviper

Why not now? Why wait to use violence to overthrow the government? It boils down to the simple difference between being labelled by the public at large as kooks or as heroes. One helps your cause, the other does not. The major battle right now is to destroy the aura of legitimacy that surrounds the government, not to physically fight them, which is more likely to get us killed or indefinitely imprisoned at this point than anything else. When they look like fools and we look like heroes, then we'll be getting there.

I say this not out of cowardice, though I am indeed afraid of the tyrants. I say it because it makes sense. Besides which, FSP and most other liberty lovers around the country are peace loving people, and you aren't going to convert them to violence without damn good reason. 'Be the change you want to see in the world' is a common expression. And I, for one, do not want to see a world full of violence, hatred and strife.

Do I want to pry Sam loose from the tyrants by force. YES. Do I know better? YES.

Thanks
Mike

I think Ivy should consider suing the Paper for Libel. They insulted her,by calling her an "attorney" how dare they attack her character in this fashion.