Video: Pumpkin Fest Crowd Boos Police Thuggery
Filed under: Copwatch, Issues, Jailed Activist, News, Personal Freedom, Police, Thuggery
Keene police, staties, and others from the surrounding areas cracked down on liberty activists today. Here’s the first video to hit the ‘net showing the initial cannabis arrests. Later police arrested three activists for “trespassing” in the supposedly “public” city lobby.
The opposition claims that no one supports liberty activists in Keene, but that is clearly a nonsense claim:
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127 Comments on Video: Pumpkin Fest Crowd Boos Police Thuggery
I was about to shed a tear at how exceptional everyone was at handling this (not at the fact that people were thrown in cages but that the police weren’t being cheered on) until I heard that ugly pig in the hat with the gold trim say “shows over” with a shit-eatin’ grin like he’s living some television drama fantasy, which made me gag on my own vomit….
I think next time the police should show up in full riot gear with clubs and OC and take care of this shit once and for all.
Free State…just a cover for drug dealing
Wow, you guys all hung over and burned out from smoking? I posted that some time ago and havent been attacked by the Keene anti-american terrorist squad yet. Of course some of you fucks like VIPER are from a different time zone so the delay is predictable in the morning. The rest of you are in a different zone alright…the Twilight Zone!
Sorry it took so long … but you’re not that important, dude.
Yea, I know. But its fun to see how easy it is to get you clowns to spill all that self righteous bilge water from your festering mouths.
Oh yeah, you guys really showed them….?
Even though if you leave them alone, they win, and if you arrest them… they sort of win too… because it shows how thuggish and childish police are to resort to using violence on peaceful people over a fucking plant.
Yeah… get your kicks at watching harmless people suffer, you fucking sadist pig… Freedom will have the last hurrah.
“First they ignore you, then they fight you, then you win.”
To me, your posts speak for themselves, hadenough. This wouldn’t be happening if self-ownership were legalized. Wishing the police would come and beat the shit out of non-violent people because they smoked a joint is akin to wishing peaceful beer & coffee drinkers, cigarette smokers, etc. would get the shit beat out of them. The viewpoint is tired and pathetic, really.
Yea…it may be, but its my opinion. Isnt’t that what all you “liberty” nuts put forth? The right for me to have my opinion. If you had the same balls as our ancestors you would back that up by saying you would fight for it with your life!
Yes, hadenough, insofar as you own your body you have a right to the thoughts that manifest themselves within it. That doesn’t mean you have a right to come to my home without my permission and shout your opinions, just for instance.
I think that most people have the same ends as “liberty nuts”. It’s our job to show most people that we have the best and in some cases the only means to lead to those ends. Peace, a clean environment, prosperity, access to healthcare, an educated populace, a standard of living that constantly improves, safety, on and on. I desire all of these things. An unhampered market will allow the consumer (i.e. all of us with these common ends/demands) to win. It is the best means.
I don’t think fighting violently is the right solution because the only way to achieve liberty is through an educated populace. I think violence will lead only to more statism. Most of the civilly disobedient are using the means that they deem most effective to achieving their end: freedom, liberty, self-ownership… whatever I can call it without getting the “scare quotes” from you.
Here’s a reddit comment thread on the video: http://www.reddit.com/r/cannabis/comments/9v5f6/civil_disobedience_three_people_arrested_for/
It’s unfortunate that you chose to disrupt a pleasant family event with your activities. Giving it a rest for a day wouldn’t have hurt your cause at all. A lot of people come to the event from out of town and out of state. I’m sure they got a great impression of Keene watching your antics. Did you really expect the police not to act when you lit up? Not to mention where it was Pumpkin Fest they have an extra large contingent of officers on hand. So they had more than adequate resources to provide you with the attention you sought. These public displays that you are putting on are just alienating you further and further from the community. Maybe that’s what you want.
R wrote:
“It’s unfortunate that you chose to disrupt a pleasant family event with your activities.”
What are you talking about? The protesters intentionally moved the protest from Central Square to an area not being used for the Festival out of respect for all the people attending. The only disruption came from the dozen or so unnecessary cops who assaulted and kidnapped a number of peaceful individuals.
IHaveHadEnough, you have the “right” to have the desire to use aggressive violence against harmless people, as long as you don’t act on it. Meaning, I think it would be wrong to use violence against you just for having that opinion. I certainly will, however, point out that what you propose is absolutely evil.
It’s unfortunate that you chose to disrupt a pleasant family event with your activities.
I’m sorry, but this is just plain disingenuous. For the past 70 or so years, men with guns and badges have been kicking in people’s doors and throwing them in cages. They’ve disrupted millions of lives, and you have your panties in a bunch when we actually take our cause to the streets and say “fuck that”.
Giving it a rest for a day wouldn’t have hurt your cause at all.
The same exact thing could be said to the police.
A lot of people come to the event from out of town and out of state. I’m sure they got a great impression of Keene watching your antics. Did you really expect the police not to act when you lit up? Not to mention where it was Pumpkin Fest they have an extra large contingent of officers on hand. So they had more than adequate resources to provide you with the attention you sought. These public displays that you are putting on are just alienating you further and further from the community. Maybe that’s what you want.
First off, how people perceive “Keene” is hardly relevant to the issue at hand. “Keene” is an abstraction, an imaginary boundary in your head. Secondly, “the community” is shit if they’re going to promote throwing peaceful people in cages.
Okay, I’ve just gotta know, where did you move to that was not public during frigin Pumpkin Fest, the entire city of Keene is near a lot of people during Pumpkin Fest, so there is no courtesy that you could possibly have in moving any were during such an event. Oh, and what courtesy is there in lighting up at all during a family filled festival in the first place. The quote “It’s unfortunate that you chose to disrupt a pleasant family event with your activities.” you responded with “What are you talking about?”, what the fuck you think he’s talking about, you shouldn’t have been in downtown Keene lighting up during such an event in the first place, such a question is expected from someone who’s brains are as big as their manhood. But even then, did you have to ask why, you still chose to disrupt it, it’s that simple. Another thing, they shouted in the video, “Why don’t you go arrest someone who’s committing a real crime!” um, yea, pretty sure it’s illegal to smoke weed with out a prescription, so there for it is a real crime. Also it is there job, it’s what they frigin do. They can’t help you get weed legalized.
Simplyme wrote:
“… what the fuck you think he’s talking about, you shouldn’t have been in downtown Keene lighting up during such an event in the first place…”
Why not?
“… yea, pretty sure it’s illegal to smoke weed with out a prescription, so there for it is a real crime.”
Sorry, but real crimes have victims. Smoking marijuana has no victim, so making it illegal is a perversion of the idea of law.
Oh wow, do you have something equally clever to say about what I’ve said to, can you beg too? Well, I’ve just gotta say this before to start to feel clever about my first comment. How would it not hurt for the police to give it a rest for a day. Granted aside from you dickweeds crime is low in Keene. But suppose that, this can be else where too, if there was a murder or robbery or something, can you imagine that or do you need to give your mind a rest for a little while after your last comment, don’t want to put to much stress on you. But suppose that happens, it’s not uncommon just so you know. What do you expect the police to do, have a friendly hello and start munching on a doughnut? This is just the way justice work, get a grip and deal with it.
Well I guess you could say that it is my opinion, it’s immoral to be lighting up around a bunch of little kids and give such a great impression of Keene NH, we had people from states all over. It’s just something you don’t do, I don’t expect you to grasp that though.
Just because you don’t think marijuana shouldn’t be illegal doesn’t mean that it it’s not a real crime, and there being no victim doesn’t make it not a crime, it’s depressing that I have to say that. The law says it’s illegal whether you like it or not. There for it is a crime, and I’m going to make a wild guess that it’s not a fake crime. So yes, it is a real crime, believe it or not.
I and others did suggest people take a break for a day, simplyme — and many did, so I don’t disagree with you there. Your defense of police behavior though, is way off the mark. There are and have been many immoral laws through history. People are responsible for their own behavior — if a law is immoral, it should not be enforced. “The law’s the law” is no excuse for immoral behavior.
By the way, this is a classic example of the tragedy of the commons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons, which is an inherent problem with public property. If the property were privately owned, the owners could decide exactly what they want the property to be used for — pumpkin fests, 420 events, neither or both — and there would be no conflict.
I witnessed you little protest and The people that were booing….your fellow burnouts. Big suprise there…nice to latch on to our local potheads,and add them to your cause….Good tactic.
I know that you against goverment and all…however could you convince you following to indulge in the municiple water supply and shower. They really stunk,no lie.
AnarchoJesse,
It’s interesting than whenever someone has a dissenting opinion about your activities you always turn it around and blame the police. Ever hear about taking responsibility for your own actions. Your level of maturity or lack thereof shows here. Whether you believe it or not despite your efforts the police will continue to enforce the law as it exists. Don’t play the game unless you are willing to pay the price.
You’ve made it quite clear by your actions and statements that you don’t give a damn about the community or the people who live here. You only care about yourself and your perceived notion that you can do anything you want without consequences.
Well, I do commend you for having some sense and not doing said protest on Pumpkin Fest. I’m sorry but I am right on the mark, this IS the way it is and law enforcement is what the police do, they arrested the one breaking a law and took them to jail, THAT’S WHAT POLICE DO!!! They uphold the law, public doesn’t have anything to do with it, a law was being broken. You have the right to protest, however you do not reserve the right to smoke weed. If you think the law is immoral, that doesn’t make it legal, that’s your opinion. And how do cows in Europe have ANYTHING to do with this?
Simply Me……..well put.
Simplyme, if a law were immoral, do you think the police should enforce it anyway? For example, do you think police were right to enforce segregation, or return slaves to their “owners” when those things were the law? Or, do you think police should choose to do what they believe to be right, even if that doesn’t happen to be what the politicians wrote down on paper? Note, I am not saying the actions of the police in this case were the same as enforcing slavery or segregation, I am asking about your general principles — do you think cops should act according to their consciences, or the law, when the two conflict?
Also, what do you think is a moral use of violence? Do you think it’s moral to threaten to harm someone who hasn’t harmed anyone else, just to get them to behave the way you want them to? What do you think the proper limits of government are? If a majority of people got together and decided you should drink orange juice every morning, go for a three mile run, and wear only plaid, do you think they would have the moral right to threaten to put you in a cage if you did not do these things?
Or, do you believe in individual rights, that you own your own body, and have the right to make your own choices, as long as you don’t harm others?
The cows in that article were just an example. You might want to read a little further. The tragedy of the commons is what happens when something is not owned, but is used by all. Everyone tries to use it for their own benefit, but no one owns it, so no one is really interested in maintaining its value. For example, if a herd of elephants in Africa were owned, they would certainly not be hunted to extinction, because the owner would want to maintain the health of the herd for the future. If, however, no one owns the herd, no one is interested in maintaining it, and so poachers will quickly grab as much as they can for themselves, and kill off the herd.
In the context of public parks, the problem is that everyone has the right to use it, since they were forced to pay for it. This means that conflicts often arise where two groups want to use the space for different purposes. If there were an owner, he/she would have the right to organize events and make rules so as to avoid those conflicts.
“Yes master hurt them bad! Please master! How dare they shout FREEDOM in the face of the slavedrivers?”
“Bust their cojones so us eunuchs don’t feel so damn envious!!!”
“That’s what police do!!” Police in Germany threw Jews in camps and gas chambers. Police in the South returned slaves to their captors. Police in the USA threw Japanese citizens into concentration camps. Just because it’s the law DOESN’T MAKE IT RIGHT.
Well, Keene as a part of the United States has law, these laws are within reason, slavery is not within reason and I don’t fucking support it. And in saying what if there were this and what if there were that is pretty dam pointless, cause you could also say that there was a law saying that at the age of 30 you have to bite off your dick and feed it to a stray dog. Now, that law and all of the what ifs you listed don’t exist. But if they did I would say our government was out of hand. But they don’t and if you are actually comparing slavery and smoking marijuana to be similar than you need some serious therapy. If the police had a problem with it they wouldn’t be one, and yes politicians do right on paper, very good. And the police should do their job, just as a clerk should, as a janitor should, and as any other working stiff that has a job, this EXCLUDES dealing weed because, guess what, IT’S ILLEGAL, WHY CAN’T YOU PEOPLE REALIZE THIS!!!
Violence is not moral at all, just throwing that out there before you also accuse me of being a frigin cereal killer or something even more clever you can dig up. But, I am truly at a loss, because did the police threaten you, did they smack you over the head, did they assault you at all, no they did not, I’d say it slower but that is made difficult with typing. Or I guess a question you might understand better is, did they hurt your feeling? Well boo hoo, you committed a crime and got the consequences, who would have thought. Did you seriously expect an officer of the law would just stand there while you broke a law, they are an officer of the law for a reason, they keep people from breaking it! And what is this example of wearing plaid drinking orange juice and going for a run, so no, I don’t think they can arrest you, cause I’m pretty sure that is your not a polices officer, wearing plaid and drinking orange juice makes you one.
I do believe I own my body, and I do make my own decisions and so do you. Do you choose what you buy, yes you do. Do you choose what you eat, yes you do, I could go on all day saying what you choose to do. HELL, here’s a fucking example for you, do you choose to protest, yes you do! It’s not illegal either, just smoking pot is. So you can’t really say they own you and make you decisions, cause they really don’t. You do you just don’t admit it cause you’ll have to say you were wrong in order to admit it.
So with your example of cows in Europe saying that it’s the same as when you smoke weed, just to give it a full title, your saying that if something isn’t owned there’s someone out there that will use it to their benefit. Hmm, well, I find that interesting, about as interesting a dead brain cells, which there has been a lot of lately, and it bores me. But what does it have to do with a law against smoking weed. Hu? Ownership, you aren’t owned, you are not under full control, and the aliens are not watching you. But the best part of this is that it goes completely against your argument, your basically saying that it’s better to be owned. So your saying we all should be owned for our safety? Which leads me to another thing, you keep referring to a jail cell as a cage, these happy safe health and maintained elephants that you speak of are probably in a cage them selves, and I find it hard to believe that you yourself have never put an animal of any sort in a cage. Would you feel better if we threw you into a ditch or tied you to a tree of something? Also poaching is illegal, hence lawbreakers that must be stopped, and if your saying breaking the law is bad the HOLY CRAP!!!
Yes an owner would have the freedom to do what ever he/she wants to do with a park. Because she owns it, people tend to do that. I’m going to say something else before you go on in your next comment saying that you own your weed and can use it and blah blah blah. She can do what ever she wants in it if it isn’t ILLEGAL, you should look that word up and show it to your friends. As for you paying for it, if you didn’t, there would be nothing, are you saying that the people building it for you should pay for it with their own money? Where would they get it, hu? Someone has to pay for it. If you didn’t pay taxes then there would be no schools, no parks, no shops, no electric company, if you didn’t pay taxes you probably wouldn’t even have your precious illegal contraband either, because there would be no television and no internet and there probably would only be the one that discovered it that would have it and there would be no way to find out about it. Wow all of this freedom that I have has made me want to go eat one of those cows of yours that I bought from the store that I was free to go to and free to buy from with my money from my job I was free to choose. Once again I could go on and on and on with what I’m free to do and all you care about is your marijuana, and I bet you wouldn’t even want it as much if it wasn’t illegal, forbidden fruit and all that.
Okay, WHEN THE FUCK DID I SAY SLAVERY WAS OKAY AND WHEN THE FUCK DID I SAY THE HOLOCAUST WAS OKAY. Seriously, you just can’t face it, the United States removed slavery because it was bad, and the United States fought in Europe against the Germans and freed the Jews. So you have no argument there either, your just being a bunch or little pussys and pointing out every bad thing ever to happen in history to run away from the fact that you can’t get away with every thing. Not to mention that they don’t have SHIT to do with smoking fucking pot!
SIMPLYME-don’t get so upset-calm down,do a little reading.Start on other threads here.All questions have the same basic answer-if you are not in full agreement,then you are a racist/statist/nazi/anti-semite/….. You will also be called a stream of expletives.There are a few that will answer civily and with reason,but most end like you have seen.Kidnapped and cage are also popular buzz words.
Meanwhile,there are a multitude of real crimes being perpetrated on the people of this country [and others],but the self-serving ‘activists’ are only concerned with their ‘right’ to smoke pot.It would be nice if the world had so few problems that we could spend so much time on this grave injustice.
BTW-I am no a ’statist’,nor do i support the government in its present form.I just choose to fight for causes that effect the greater good of the majority.And while it hasn’t gotten me any downtime in the Westmoreland County farm,it has gotten me on the ‘no fly’ list’ a nice file in Washington,and pleasant conversation with BATF agents.So I do know of the consequences of civil disobedience.
—bil
BIL- You confuse me, I see you are not arguing for either side and I like that, But that one bit “if you are not in full agreement,then you are a racist/statist/nazi/anti-semite/…..” are you saying I’m one or all of these? Just an honest question, there will be no debate involved, unless you say you are calling me these.
Simply…and others
Some of youguys seem to be reasonable people. DO you think there is anything to be gained by some of us regular people to deny these guys their moment by being at these parks first every day? We could counter demonstrate and extinguish anythin gthey may light. I hear they are going to continue in Veterans park in Manchester and my expand to the oval in Milford. This needs to be stopped. If anybody wants to help stop this, lets think of a way to get ahold of each other and we can organize a response to these bufons.
Hey…Wiles….didnt you guys do just that in front of Riveras house? Invade his privacy in fron tof his home and shout your opinions?
Gee….sorry you cant have it both ways.
ihavehadenough- very well put indeed, but I do see an error, if you put two groups or people with opposite opinions in the same area, it has been a bad idea in the past and I presume that violence might occur. Just a hunch and all that, they might be like, no violence every body, go peacefully and all that, but the people known to smoke pot are the type of people that wouldn’t mind starting a bit of a gang fight between the two. I mean I’m totally with you and all that, but I’m not going in public with a bunch of punks with knives. People tend to get angry and that is just as inevitable as the lacking brain capacity of these posers.
hey IHAVEHADENOUGH and END GAME, if you click on my name it’ll lead to to a growing Facebook group, with over 30 day joined in a day, I hope that with the new Keene Observer blog can help us forcefully push back
Thank you Max, this is the kind of thing that you can do, I’m just thinking smart in saying we shouldn’t confront them face to face, past events shows fault, this kind of thin works though. Okay, now with that said, with one of you tools want’s to be the first to call me a pussy because I don’t want to prevent violence?
you guys do realize that if we just ignore the protesters then they will eventually give up. They thrive on the attention they receive from the media and these sites where everyone comments. They wont know what to do when no one cares anymore. Besides all these people who claim that the police are bad and we shouldn’t have any government would be calling for their help if someone did them wrong. What if one of them was robbed they would be saying “HELP ME, HELP ME, ITS YOUR JOB TO HELP ME” but if the cops are not there who’s going to help?
NO ONE!!!
so just leave them to wallow in their own pity
Simplyme wrote:
“Okay, WHEN THE FUCK DID I SAY SLAVERY WAS OKAY AND WHEN THE FUCK DID I SAY THE HOLOCAUST WAS OKAY.”
Have you actually been reading the comments directed towards you? No one is trying to accuse you of supporting slavery or the Holocaust. You probably don’t and that’s the entire point. Slavery and the Holocaust were caused by legislation and thugs who were content to “just follow orders” just like drug prohibition. What is being argued is not that you’re a slaver or a Nazi or even that the drug war is anywhere near as bad as slavery or genocide, but that morality is not defined by what the laws are. Laws are arbitrary words written on pieces of paper by bureaucrats, not the Word of God. Laws have no metaphysical validity by virtue of the fact that they are laws.
had enough and simply:
feel free to come to the square. the point of these rallies is that “yes I DO reserve the right to smoke pot.” I’m fed up with people like you who think it’s acceptable to force your sense of morality down everybody’s throat and threaten violence over it. You do not own Keene, you do not own the world,you do not own other people. These protests will continue to grow in locations and scope. Learn to accept that others own themselves and reserve the right to do their own bodies as they please. Whether or not you believe smoking marijuana should be “legal” is completely irrelevant. Any violence that would ensue would be started by you and your pathetic Daddy complex.
And SimplyMe: you’re a prick. plain and simple. you have no argument of value and resort to speculating on the intellectual capacity of complete strangers, and vomiting your derision everywhere.
As for “a family event”, all the hoodlums that went around smashing pumpkins in the road caused a real, tangible problem in the city. Dozens of hours cleaning up the trash and smashed pumpkin guts. Who knows how many thousands of dollars wasted by the city. Yet you contend that marijuana is such a scourge to society. The only problems that arise from its usage are from psychotic authoritarians who use violence to keep their neighbors conforming to their notions of normality.
What are you going to do? Walk around shooting people in the face with squirt guns? And you have the audacity to label others as children.
Not a squirt gun…that could cause trauma to an eye…just a spray bottle…like the kind used to mist plants…You know, like the kind used on cannabis plants when you grow it.
Hey simply….I think you are a great person.
Oh look, it’s the whole sadistic statist club, out in full force today I see…
It’s childish to resort to violence to get what you want – if you really have nothing floating in that head of yours other than ideas about how to hurt people then maybe you belong in a mental ward with the rest of the psychopaths and anti-socialites….
Of course violent people like you are “upstanding citizens” and peaceful people like the ones arrested yesterday belong in cages, away from the rest of society – less they taint your minds and make you consider doing something that isn’t violent – GASP!
…….WTF is this, bIZaR5O W0RLd?
Simplyme, please do not dodge my questions above. Try to think logically, and answer them. Frankly your thinking seems very muddled and run-together. Any of you can answer these — try to think honestly and clearly.
1. If a law is immoral, do you think it should be enforced, simply because it’s the law?
2. What do you think is a moral use of violence, and what are the limits on what government can do morally?
“These laws are within reason, slavery is not within reason and I don’t fucking support it.”
So, you agree that people were right to break that law? Is the reason you agree with people breaking that law because the law was immoral, or is there another reason? For me, it’s because the law was immoral.
“But if they did [make orange juice, jogging, and plaid mandatory] I would say our government was out of hand.”
On what basis would you say the government is out of control in this case? What specific line would they have crossed? Also, would you support civil disobedience against these laws?
“But they don’t and if you are actually comparing slavery and smoking marijuana to be similar than you need some serious therapy.”
I’m not comparing them, I said that specifically. I am trying to ask you logical questions about your belief system, which seems quite muddled.
“Violence is not moral at all … But, I am truly at a loss, because did the police threaten you, did they smack you over the head, did they assault you at all, no they did not, I’d say it slower but that is made difficult with typing.”
Don’t you think throwing someone in a cage is violent? If I threw you in a cage just because you did something I don’t approve of, like smoke a cigarette, I think most of us would call that violent.
“Did you seriously expect an officer of the law would just stand there while you broke a law, they are an officer of the law for a reason, they keep people from breaking it!”
I expect the officer to behave morally. If the law is immoral, it should not be enforced.
“cause I’m pretty sure that is your not a polices officer, wearing plaid and drinking orange juice makes you one.”
uh, what?
“I do believe I own my body, and I do make my own decisions and so do you. Do you choose what you buy, yes you do. Do you choose what you eat, yes you do, I could go on all day saying what you choose to do. HELL, here’s a fucking example for you, do you choose to protest, yes you do! It’s not illegal either, just smoking pot is.”
Pot smoking is a decision about my own body. I own my own body, and I have the right to make my own decisions about it without fear of violence being perpetrated against me.
Just because there is not tyranny in the area of grocery shopping (actually, there is, check out the regulations they put on that sometime …), doesn’t mean there is not tyranny in this area.
“Ownership, you aren’t owned, you are not under full control, and the aliens are not watching you. But the best part of this is that it goes completely against your argument, your basically saying that it’s better to be owned. So your saying we all should be owned for our safety?”
No, I am saying all property should be owned — land specifically. People are not property. I don’t know why you’re talking about aliens. Are you sure you’re sober?
“Which leads me to another thing, you keep referring to a jail cell as a cage, these happy safe health and maintained elephants that you speak of are probably in a cage them selves”
What? I was talking about wild herds. In neither case were they caged.
“and I find it hard to believe that you yourself have never put an animal of any sort in a cage.”
What does this have to do with anything? Animals are not people. The illustration was to explain the tragedy of the commons, which you have apparently still failed to grasp in the slightest. It had nothing to do with pot legalization, it only had to do with management of public property.
“Would you feel better if we threw you into a ditch or tied you to a tree of something?”
Uh, I’m going to say no? What on earth are you talking about?
“Also poaching is illegal, hence lawbreakers that must be stopped, and if your saying breaking the law is bad the HOLY CRAP!!!”
Laws that prohibit people from harming each other or their property are legitimate — for example, those against assault, murder, rape, theft, etc. So, if the herd is owned by someone, and you poach an animal, you are stealing from them, which is a real crime, with a victim.
“As for you paying for it, if you didn’t, there would be nothing, are you saying that the people building it for you should pay for it with their own money?”
There are a number of ways they could collect money. They can collect investments, and donations, they can charge admission, or subscriptions, etc. Nature preservation groups collect donations and buy plots of land all the time, on which the public is allowed to hike and camp.
“If you didn’t pay taxes then there would be no schools, no parks, no shops, no electric company”
Actually all of these things existed and worked far better before the government got involved. No, there is nothing that should be funded by extorting money from innocent people by threatening them with violence, or threatening to steal their houses.
“if you didn’t pay taxes you probably wouldn’t even have your precious illegal contraband either, because there would be no television and no internet and there probably would only be the one that discovered it that would have it and there would be no way to find out about it.”
Lol, you’ve got to be kidding. TV, internet, and communications would not exist without the government? You’re like a parody of a brainwashed Russian or something, seriously.
“Wow all of this freedom that I have has made me want to go eat one of those cows of yours that I bought from the store that I was free to go to and free to buy from with my money from my job I was free to choose. Once again I could go on and on and on with what I’m free to do”
We do have a lot of freedoms left, but they are being eroded continuously, if you haven’t noticed. By the way, that cow you’re going to buy is far more expensive than it needs to be, because it’s been taxed many times, and subject to reams of regulations, as has the store itself. Your salary is smaller because of income taxes, and then you’ll get charged sales tax most places on top of it. You’re using money that is worth less than 1/50th of what it used to be, before the federal reserve screwed it up with inflation, and you may not have that job in the first place because of the recession caused by reckless monetary policy and corporatist favoritism for big business. Oh, and if you want unpasteurized milk to go with your burger, too bad, it’s illegal. If you want soda made with sugar to go with it, too bad, high tariffs have pushed it out of the market and subsidies to corn farmers have caused it to be replaced with corn syrup.
“Once again I could go on and on and on with what I’m free to do and all you care about is your marijuana, and I bet you wouldn’t even want it as much if it wasn’t illegal, forbidden fruit and all that.”
Actually, I don’t smoke pot, never have, and don’t intend to. I don’t approve of drug use. I’m just not a tyrant, and I recognize that other people have the right to make their own choices about their lives.
Legitimate laws have victims. Victimless crimes are arbitrary power grabs by politicians, who attempt to control the lives and choices of free people by threatening to harm them.
The founders certainly were not perfect, but they would be ashamed of the amount of arbitrary government control over our lives that so many supposedly free people put up with today.
DR .Q- Then what is the point of bringing them up, yes those things happened. But I fail to see the significance they have on the topic at hand. They are to very different things, the discusion is not on Nazi Germany or the slave drivers of early America. They’re just introducing more suvir situations to run away form the one that we’re addressing.
JOSH- Well, if you cared nearly as much as you sound like you do. You would have noticed that you I’m not cramming anything down anyone’s throat. That I reserve for your girlfriend. I am only voicing my opinion, I should hope that you free staters don’t have a problem with opinions cause it seems like you support it. And on the contrary, I don’t own any one, to quote my self in above comments “Ownership, you aren’t owned, you are not under full control,” so clearly I don’t own anyone. And I don’t support violence, on the contrary, I’m willing to own up on a mistake in the text I didn’t notice “because I don’t want to prevent violence?” the “don’t” isn’t supposed to be there, so it would say “because I want to prevent violence?”, so clearly, violence isn’t my style. Oh, and Josh, I love you too.
“cause I’m pretty sure that is your not a polices officer, wearing plaid and drinking orange juice makes you one.”
……. wow, I missed this; can I use this as an example to teach the kids I mentor what someone who’s sick in the head is like?
Simplyme wrote:
“Then what is the point of bringing them up, yes those things happened. But I fail to see the significance they have on the topic at hand. They are to very different things, the discusion is not on Nazi Germany or the slave drivers of early America. They’re just introducing more suvir situations to run away form the one that we’re addressing.”
If you really don’t understand… then re-read my last post. I explained why people are bringing up slavery and the Holocaust in as easy to understand a way as possible.
MaxTheCommunist—
You know, several of us are Anarcho-Communists and Mutualists. One Anarcho-Communist and two mutualists are in jail right now, as a matter of fact. So much for solidarity.
You’re a class traitor, and I sincerely hope you get what you deserve. That you would try and defend the actions of the very same institution which makes it impossible for us to organize from the bottom up, which makes it defends capitalists before it defends labor is just appalling.
AnarchoJesse,
It’s interesting than whenever someone has a dissenting opinion about your activities you always turn it around and blame the police.
I don’t mind dissent, but uninformed appeals to emotion and arbitrary authority is no rational basis to foment one’s dissent upon. Additionally, I think you’re confusing dissent with personal attacks. You’re not actually making an argument, but premising your opposition on our character, when that isn’t the issue at hand— it’s the argument we’re presenting.
Finally, I think you’re holding an implicit double standard– whenever we express dissent and act on that dissent, we are told to “be mature” and blood thirsty hooligans call for our incarceration. Yet, when YOU dissent and we actually call into question the ideas you present (and not resort to personal attacks like the vast majority of those that oppose us do), we’re hypocrites.
Ever hear about taking responsibility for your own actions.
Actually, most people here are pretty familiar with the concept– the thing we don’t get is when you tack on the “and your responsibility to everyone else”.
Your level of maturity or lack thereof shows here.
I’m not sure I follow you here. Might want to walk us through this one.
Whether you believe it or not despite your efforts the police will continue to enforce the law as it exists. Don’t play the game unless you are willing to pay the price.
So, essentially, don’t dissent unless you’re willing to be thrown in a cage.
You’ve made it quite clear by your actions and statements that you don’t give a damn about the community or the people who live here.
I’m sorry, but you have it backwards– we don’t think people should be put in cages for victimless “crimes”. We have never advocated violence, and we have never hurt anyone.
You only care about yourself and your perceived notion that you can do anything you want without consequences.
And why shouldn’t we be permitted to do whatever we want if we’re not hurting anyone?
Dear Paul,
I think that it is just dandy that you think these people have a right to do as they wish with their bodies, but i must say that smoking pot is against the law. Now these people can light up as often as they wish but they must keep in mind that they are breaking the law, ans when someone breaks the law they have to pay the consequences. You cant get away with this law because certain people think it is “immoral”. (connecting back to the Holocaust issue) that would be like saying it was okay to kill all those innocent people because some people thought it was alright, and believe me people did approve of it.
Dear Josh,
I think your a tad confused, you do not reserve the right to smoke pot. For smoking pot is illegal and no one has the right to do something that is illegal. You do however reserve to do whatever you wish with your body but if you do something illegal then you deserve to be punished.
Dear Simplyme,
You have made some excellent points and I love Josh to
GetOverIt— your entire argument of “it’s the law” is inherently circular, and thus without any real merit. You’re assuming the the law is valid or just, and the reason why it is valid is “because it is the law.” In short you’re assuming exactly what you’re trying to prove in order to make your argument.
But it isn’t an argument. It’s a fallacy.
Okay Paul, I will answer each question honestly and in full. But I will first say that it is pointless and an agreement will never be reached, and no matter the answer you will not gain satisfaction.
1.What I call immoral and what you call immoral are to different things. But the way I see it is that it’s more unintelligent than immoral for reason that with lack of time I will not get into. But if it is something that I call immoral then yes, but does it hurt you to not have this law, does it negatively effect you were it doesn’t only serve as a necessity?
2.Was there violence, I think that if there is violence against you, you reserve the right to defend yourself, but where was there violence? Did it happen during your protest, and being arrested doesn’t count. I find this off topic.
Yes, it was because it was immoral, did you honestly expect a different answer, but as I said, what you see as immoral is different from my view. Also stated earlier was that it is only a necessity that will have no effect other that negative.
The orange juice thing completely random and insignificant.
They would have to be physically harmful, discriminatory, or financially very bad enough such as doesn’t exist now.
I just rind these references different to an extreme level.
Okay, there’s the cage again, look, you are being put in jail, your making it sound so much worse than it really is, and you are breaking a law, you are PUT in jail for a crime, you break a law and you get the consequences, so there isn’t any violence your just being a bunch of babys, like when a teacher hold a preschoolers hand to cross the road and then he cry and yells that hurts because he doesn’t want to go.
It’s their frigin job, there going to do it, act your frigin age.
Just was pointing out how much sense it made. I hope you now can see that.
I’m talking about the fact that you are going to be held somewhere and just because it has bars doesn’t make you an animal, it is just effective. A little thing called logic.
So poaching is stealing? I don’t understand the metaphor. Yes killing and stealing is a crime. But I fail to see the connection. Unless your referring to your right being stolen that you never had in the first place saying it’s a crime?
Well, donations are not reliable sources of money, you’ll get some, but enough is rare. If our country relied on donation and funding we wouldn’t have been nearly as far as we are now and a number of advancements wouldn’t even exist. And if your serious about our country running on donations and funding then you really don’t know what your talking about.
So the government threatened violence to people that wouldn’t pay taxes? Homes yes that is an unfortunate detail. But as for schools public assets, there were there indeed, but they would be limited to no chains at all, no stores just farmers with more of one thing to trade with other farmers and such, stores would be limited to each store focusing on one thing, such as only meat, only vegetables, only bread, and so on. We would be much farther behind advancement wise without a government. All in all, we’d be screwed without a government.
Okay, if your so smart, tell me, if we had never had a government to fund things or organize things how would we have said advancements. Keep in mind with out a government there would be no order, and fighting and probably war would prevent and prolong most technology as a whole.
Well shit happens when the economy goes to hell. But are you saying that things would be better if you could legally smoke weed. I doubt that would possibly better our economy, on the contrary, it would probably negatively affect it if anything. In my opinion though so you don’t go ape shit on me and think your smart.
Well good for you, but mentally it would probably cause peoples live to have a negative turn, judging by what has happened to very many people, statistic and all that, no actual numbers, just that most people have had it negatively effect their life, that’s just what happens.
Quite honestly I don’t care for the government either, I just think that these people can live without being able to legally smoke weed.
Simplyme-no,I was not calling you those names-but if you stay here,it is only a matter time before you are subjected to them-not by me! The level of argument by the 420 club declines real fast,with a few exceptions. I agree that confrontation can lead to violence,that is what they want.A whack with a nightstick on video would make heros out of zeros.These guys wouldn’t know a real cause if it bit them in the ass.And yes,I know what a whack with a nightstick feels like-also Bridgeport,Ct lockup makes the county farm look like fun.I wouls also like to get together with some of the posters here.But the idea of a candlelight vigil on my lawn would not go over good.I am not a public official by any means and would not put up with that crap for long.I am accountable to no-one. —bil
1.What I call immoral and what you call immoral are to different things. But the way I see it is that it’s more unintelligent than immoral for reason that with lack of time I will not get into. But if it is something that I call immoral then yes, but does it hurt you to not have this law, does it negatively effect you were it doesn’t only serve as a necessity?
I’m having trouble understanding this.
2.Was there violence, I think that if there is violence against you, you reserve the right to defend yourself, but where was there violence? Did it happen during your protest, and being arrested doesn’t count. I find this off topic.
If I came to your house with my guns, and demanded that your submit to my authority, would you consider this violence? Simply because you find it uncomfortable to talk about doesn’t make the act of an arrest any less violent.
As for the rest of your post, I can’t really tell where one point ends or another begins.
The law is the Law
and until it is changed you have to follow it
thats all i mean by it.
You can think its immoral all you want but that does not give you the right to break it.
and when all you people grow up and mature you will realize how pointless this whole cause is.
“…morality is not defined by what the laws are. Laws are arbitrary words written on pieces of paper by bureaucrats, not the Word of God. Laws have no metaphysical validity by virtue of the fact that they are laws.”
Morals are opinion based, and everybody is entitled to their own opinion. In fact, the judicial system is specifically built so that laws are based on our opinions. The bureaucrats are there as middlemen between the people and the law, nothing more. That’s the simple concept of democracy which people seem to be having so much trouble grasping. This system doesn’t work perfectly, but it definitely works. The people are the bureaucrats who are the law. The problem with Free Staters is they appear to hate all three.
“the point of these rallies is that “yes I DO reserve the right to smoke pot.”
You may have a right under your own morals, but others disagree, and consequentially you don’t have a lawful right. The only thing you have on your side is your own opinion. What you can and can’t do isn’t based on your opinion, it’s based on the community’s.
All that the activists at p-fest did was make a claim over a megaphone that their opinion was the only one. It made them look horrible, and showed their lack of understanding of the way our community runs.
If activists want to make a change they need to persuade the community that it’s a reasonable demand. So far they have only shoved extremist views down everyone’s throats, and it’s fairly obvious it’s not working. The decision is in the hands of the masses, not the extremists.
Thank you Trevor!
The law is the Law
This is called a circular argument. You’re assuming exactly that which you are trying to prove, and presupposing your conclusion is not a valid argument.
and until it is changed you have to follow it
thats all i mean by it.
Why should we follow bad laws if we know they’re bad? Would you advocate turning over runaway slaves if we were in the Ante Bellum because it was the law?
You can think its immoral all you want but that does not give you the right to break it.
Who or what gives them the right to impose it?
and when all you people grow up and mature you will realize how pointless this whole cause is.
Saddest post of the year. I can’t imagine how terrified you are of the State apparatus.
Trevor, are you some sort of moral nihilist? To act as if one could justly use their morals as a rational basis to violate other people’s rights is absolutely appalling. By your very own argument, if I get enough people agree with me on the point of shooting everyone I felt to be a class traitor, it would be totally justified.
I can’t even begin to go over just how insane this position is and what sort of atrocities could be permitted within this framework.
I find your diction a little hard to follow, simply.
I know we may not fully agree on what’s immoral or moral — we’ll have to talk about that more. My first question was, do you think laws that YOU agree are immoral should still be enforced? I think your answer was no — did I understand you correctly?
The second question was, what do you think the limits of government are? Frankly, I didn’t follow your answer here, it seemed quite rambling. The orange juice question is key. Why specifically do you think a law mandating that everyone must drink orange juice would be immoral, and therefore should be broken? Is it because you believe you have a right to decide what you drink?
Your imagination of commerce without taxes is frankly absurd. Why on earth would a person be limited to one item per shop? It’s not taxes that cause people to have diversified stock in their store — just the opposite. Taxes are a burden on commerce, that restricts entrepreneurship and turns successful companies into failures. In the examples of society with very small government and little or no taxation and regulation, commerce flourished.
Your idea that we would have no order without taxes is also silly. People want to be safe, and secure. People, including me, would be happy to subscribe to police services, provided those police focus on real crimes with victims.
It is not necessary to extort money from people in order to have a well functioning society. Order arises naturally among free people — it is not necessary to have top down dictatorial control.
REMEMBER: No rulers not no rules! Order is NOT kept by government its kept because of similarly minded people living peacefully together.
Simplyme: Your idea of a post government would is so sad, its one more reason why I don’t want you to have power over me in any way.
Sadly the government has hindered many (if not most) advancements in most industries. Maybe you should research the telephone industry once a totally failed government monopoly and after it was loosened/opened somewhat then that’s when the real innovations were made.
Trevor: Mob rule is never a good way to run anything.
I don’t HATE anyone btw, I forgive those cops and hope they will stop the immoral things they do to innocent people
Signing off, that’s enough talking to a wall for one day, I’m going to go do something foe filling like watch grass grow. You all have fun with you thick heads.
Trevor, democracy is two attackers and a victim voting on whether the victim gets to be left alone. Immoral acts do not magically become moral because a majority have approved of them.
I am interested in your response to the following scenario:
Suppose at the creation of the world I find myself living near two other people. Now, suppose myself, and my first neighbor, wish to steal from the other. My second neighbor simply wishes to live in peace. My first neighbor and I hold a “constitutional convention”, and determine by two thirds majority, that we will have a democracy. We then vote to steal from our neighbor, and the motion passes by two thirds majority, which of course is binding, since we have already determined that we shall live in a democracy. It’s now the law that we shall take the property of our neighbor, and since there are two of us and one of him, overwhelm him by force and do so immediately. Or, of course, we could give him a chance to leave, at which point we get his farm anyway.
Do you believe this scenario is any different, or more moral, than common theft?
Drug use is a more controversial topic than most, but that doesn’t mean it has to be solved through some sort of revolution or war. The reason things like slavery were legal was because it was profitable. There was a huge urgency to stop it because people were being killed. In that case an uprising is necessary. Paul, you can apply that same concept to your example.
Nobody is profiting off of making pot illegal. Further, nobody is going to die because they can’t smoke. I think it’s extreme and immature that you feel it’s necessary to break our system to make a simple change.
Drug use is a more controversial topic than most, but that doesn’t mean it has to be solved through some sort of revolution or war.
Direct action is the only way things get done anymore– leaving our fate the whims of other men in positions of obscene power is not in my best interest.
The reason things like slavery were legal was because it was profitable. There was a huge urgency to stop it because people were being killed. In that case an uprising is necessary. Paul, you can apply that same concept to your example.
Nobody is profiting off of making pot illegal.
Drug Cartels, Big Pharma (not that there is much of a difference)….
Further, nobody is going to die because they can’t smoke.
Who’s going to die if they do?
I think it’s extreme and immature that you feel it’s necessary to break our system to make a simple change.
You’re acting like we actually inflict some sort of physical pain. As Thoreau put it: “Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once? Men, generally, under such a government as this, think that they ought to wait until they have persuaded the majority to alter them. They think that, if they should resist, the remedy would be worse than the evil. But it is the fault of the government itself that the remedy is worse than the evil. It makes it worse. Why is it not more apt to anticipate and provide for reform? Why does it not cherish its wise minority? Why does it cry and resist before it is hurt? Why does it not encourage its citizens to put out its faults, and do better than it would have them? Why does it always crucify Christ and excommunicate Copernicus and Luther, and pronounce Washington and Franklin rebels?”
“You can think its immoral all you want but that does not give you the right to break it.”
Uh… who gave anyone the right to tell me what to do?
WHO OWNS ME?
Trevor, you didn’t answer my question. Would you consider the actions of me and my neighbor in that case the same as common theft, or somehow magically legitimate and moral because of the “voting” process we used?
I don’t support any sort of violence to effect change, but it’s exactly your system, which is currently literally funded by extortion, which needs serious reform. I certainly support civil disobedience to that end.
Pot isn’t even the most major issue for me, although I certainly believe people own their own bodies and have a right to make their own choices about it.
The major problem is that people are under the delusion that if they get a majority together, they can morally do things which would be immoral for any of them on an individual basis. This needs to end — you cannot delegate any rights to a representative that you do not yourself hold.
The law is violence — when an act is illegal, that literally means violence will be used against those who do it. The only legitimate laws, then, are defensive — laws against assault, murder, rape, theft, etc, because the only moral use of violence is in self-defense, or in defense of innocents.
Politicians have no right to cook up whatever arbitrary victimless rules they care to concoct for our lives, and then enforce them at the point of a gun. This is an aggressive initiation of violence, and it is immoral.
I’m just saying you don’t need to get people thrown in jail to prove a point. It draws heat on the subject, but makes you look worse.
Direct action is the only way things get done anymore– leaving our fate the whims of other men in positions of obscene power is not in my best interest.
Yeah, you need action. But not by going into pumpkin fest with a megaphone. Not worth it, people are getting more and more pissed by Free Stater’s antics. The obvious path is to get more people on your side, not start a face off with the law.
Drug Cartels, Big Pharma (not that there is much of a difference)….
Ok, that’s true I’ll give you that. But I don’t see it as manipulating opinions of voters the same way something like slavery would.
Well im with Simply Me
i don’t want to deal with people who have a blurred vision of the truth.
Theres no getting through to people who are basically the equivalent of brainwashed and think that yelling their opinions at people is going to change anything.
I do seriously wish all of you luck with this I personally think that pot should be legalized but your going about it in the wrong way.
Enjoy your future failure
and when you do realize what a waste this is just remember, you were warned.
Sorry I didn’t make it clear Paul. I 100% agree with you that the law can be twisted. Don’t get me wrong, I even agree that marijuana use should be legalized. But in a situation like you described with theft, the voters have alterior motives. I don’t see the many of voters making any profit off of making pot illegal.
Because of this, I think our system of voting will still work fine to legalize pot. You just need to rally enough people, and not by making them hate you.
Oh, look, everyone has opinions. Get out your guns and start a fucking war. Words are twisted, teeth are ground to dust, and what has all this arguing nonsense accomplished?
For you Free Staters out there: Anything that makes one wake up and look beyond his or her feet, I support. I’m not an anarchist, nor do I label myself as anything. I just don’t find current common methods of dissension “extreme” enough. But I’m a man of passion, so politics tend to render me a bit cold. PS: Non-violent change? For those of you that believe progressive change is possible without violence… you have far too much faith in man, in my opinion.
For those who oppose the Free Staters: Without them, you’d have nothing to be riled about. And the worst crime here is fighting to take that away, to take that human passion away. Don’t rob yourselves of the wonderful excitement. And please, don’t waste your hate on fellow men,,. I think we can all agree that if a crime is victimless, it shouldn’t be a crime in the first place. We can argue the little details all we want (but it’s the law, but I don’t want it to be, but there’s no way to change it, but it isn’t right, but my opinion’s better and well-documented), but damn, we’re all being robbed blind if we allow ourselves to waste emotion and fight each other over FREEDOMS and BASIC VIRTUES. And we can’t blame the government for that…
Trevor, I agree that the tactics discussion is a legitimate one. Civil disobedience certainly has been very effective through our history, but I know a lot of people who choose to do political activism instead, and work through the system. I also support that — any (moral) way we can make people more free is fine by me. You could be right that that will prove to be more effective — we shall see.
I was mainly making a point about democracy in general, however, and forced taxation especially. What is your view on that? Clearly, I think, most of the things government currently does would be obviously immoral if done by an individual. As I say, there are larger issues here than just cannabis — it is one symptom of a much deeper and more widespread problem.
And, I don’t want to be a nag, but you still haven’t answered my question 
.
Johnnyappleseed-a man after my own heart!I agree,things have progressed too far for it to be left to the ‘representatives’ that are elected.I am ready either way,but hope it never comes to that. —bil
Johnnyappleseed: Civil disobedience is fine, it keeps things lively- doing it in the middle of pumpkin fest gave lots of publicity. But pumpkin fest is the only thing that ever happens in keene. Families bring their friggin kids to it. Dick move to do it there, really.
Trevor: Personally, I don’t believe in shielding kids from that sort of thing, so I think it’s a good thing that they saw what is really going on. Smoking around them? Well no, I think that’s a bit rude. But signs and words and such are perfectly fine, in my opinion.
Who among you asked to be born? You exist because you were forced to exist by some other person. It’s not a matter of morality, as the raw nature of the universe we exist in is inherently amoral.
To you trolls [Likely a waste of time and I know don't feed the trolls but here goes]: The reality that you think you exist in is a complete sham. It is manufactured and fed to you by your betters for the express purpose enabling you to be controlled by each other.
Authority does not exist in reality, only in the weak minds of those of you who ascribe authority to those clever enough to pretend to possess it.
By directing your anger at those among you who can see clearly you are only strengthening your own fetters.
Best of luck.
Hello Had enough or whomever you were before youe were who you are now. Nice to meet you kinda. FYI, Michigan is in the same time zone as New Hampshire, just gets dark a bit later here. Now, I’ll post this again from the other thread, because bil liked it and I thought it was an important idea. You may discuss it however you see fit, I have to prepare for work. Have a great night all…
————————————————–
A law against the possession of a plant is a perversion of the law. Law is supposed to be the collective organization of individual justice. Putting someone in a cage who has not harmed another is unjust. Look at it this way. If the law authorizes an ‘authority’ to do something that an individual cannot, the law is perverted. If I tried to put someone in a cage who hadn’t harmed anyone, I’d be caged myself. It’s only when an ‘authority’ does it under the ‘color of law’ that it’s ok. The basic rights that the government was supposed to be set up to protect are rights to life, liberty, and property. When the government says you cannot possess a certain plant, they have violated your right to property. When they put you in a cage for possessing the plant, they have violated your right to liberty. When you are locked in a cage and not free to do as you choose, they have taken a piece of your life.
Life, liberty, and property, all violated in one fell swoop.
TheVanities: Wonderful comment. Bravo 
LPViper: Hopefully people will see beyond it all and realize that it’s not just about smoking pot… It’s very easy to be an outsider and say “Hey! Look at all the potheads screaming for their bong-rights.” And those same people are so frightened by the thought that, just maybe, we’ve lost control over a lot things in the USA, that they will fight to keep themselves in the dark.
Anybody ask Sam if he was a little uncomfortable holding his sign by himself. When you pussies let him in the square…..funny to see him skirt off with his tail between his legs.
For some time on the intarwebz, I’ve noticed a trend, and that trend is confirmed here: those who have trouble formulating coherent, logical thoughts, also have extreme trouble expressing themselves in coherent, logical ways.
End Game—
Why don’t you come out with the guns, clubs, tear gas, and cuffs yourself if you think we should be beaten and imprisoned. Put your money where your mouth is like we have, or you’re nothing but a chicken shit loser basking in the filth of anonymity on the internet.
Jesse, why would I want to do that, so I can have a vigil in front of my house. I am OK with the anonymity of the internet….and the fact that I know you and your friends on the street. You however wouldnt know me if I held a door for you, passed you on church street, saw one of you going to pay rent, smoking at railroad square.
The laws prevent me from striking you down on the street, and I have to much to lose. I prefer a lie in wait approach. Call me an opportunist. Thank you for pointing out my grammatical insufficiencies.
JesseJesseJesse! END GAME???…He’s just a chickenshit loser basking in the anonymity of the internet…I’m still waiting for him to flame me, but I think he’s just a chickenshit loser who’s – O! – I just answered my own Q?!…Hey, End Game, can the CST cbr/nbc detectors be configured to detect cannabinoids in smoke???…C’mon, tough guy, *WHAT* am I talking about???…(Well hey, if you’re not so smart, maybe you’re not too tough, either!!!…)
Jesse, why would I want to do that, so I can have a vigil in front of my house. I am OK with the anonymity of the internet….and the fact that I know you and your friends on the street. You however wouldnt know me if I held a door for you, passed you on church street, saw one of you going to pay rent, smoking at railroad square.
See though, I don’t really have a problem being recognizable— it’s led to maybe a dozen or so people come up to me and introduce themselves when I’m doing something completely unrelated to my work for liberty, and ask me about what I do and why I do it.
And I’m pretty sure a large sum have left the conversation with better impressions of me and what we’re doing.
The laws prevent me from striking you down on the street, and I have to much to lose. I prefer a lie in wait approach. Call me an opportunist.
Well, rationalize your impotence all you want. You’re still chicken shit.
Thank you for pointing out my grammatical insufficiencies.
Don’t sweat it. I do what I can for the little people.
Uh, endgame is getting just a bit close to “communicating threats”…it starts where parody, satire, &free speech end…plus, you really are a loser, endgame…look at the latest OBAMA-NATION announcement…New Federal policy – DEFACTO DECRIM FOR MEDICAL WEED! HAH!…See, these 420 protests *WORKED*!…/.
King of beers….I was not that close to threatening, was I? I have never said that you burnouts should not smoke your dope, I just hate burnouts. So congrats on your victory….however I dont believe your protests pushed the bill.
Jesse, I am sure we will meet again someday. until then I prefer to maintain my anonymity. I am OK with being a chicken shit in your opinion. sticks and stones pal
It’s so sad to see people spouting this collectivist nonsense about rights and justice coming from a conference of the “community”. The old soviet round tables and Politburo really prove how fallacious that statement is.
Those that says such things claim to own their opinions but then disown the violence wrought by their belief system.
I also resent the hyperbolic labeling of “burnout.” A good portion of the people at these events are upstanding people with families, jobs, and careers they are striving for. I am one of them, and consuming an eighth ounce of marijuana in two and a half months hardly makes one a burnout.
Trevor…
“Morals are opinion based, and everybody is entitled to their own opinion. In fact, the judicial system is specifically built so that laws are based on our opinions.”
“You may have a right under your own morals, but others disagree, and consequentially you don’t have a lawful right. The only thing you have on your side is your own opinion. What you can and can’t do isn’t based on your opinion, it’s based on the community’s.”
No you moron. Morals are based upon the facts of reality. I’m hungry, I know for a fact that eating an apple will ease my hunger, therefore I ought to eat an apple. Opinions do not affect reality, only our perceptions are affected.
“The decision is in the hands of the masses, not the extremists.”
If you were born a Jew in Nazi Germany, I can only hope you wouldn’t be spewing this.
End Game—
It find it deliciously ironic that you’re afraid of what we might do to you when you’re the one calling for brutality against us.
You’re OK with promoting violence, just so long as you can avoid being hurt yourself.
“sticks and stones pal”
Yeah, they’re all you got. The people you hate so much are actually doing shit that makes a difference.
You cowards who complain in the paper about how “oh I agree with them (because not even many serfs these days can rationalize keeping it illegal) but they should use the glorious system that never .. er I mean totally works great and shouldn’t break laws because LAWS ARE LAWS!” wouldn’t even be talking about shit (I’m referring to the recent spur of folk that never picked up a cause for anything until they decided to impugn the activists – FS Libertarians are fine imo) if it weren’t for the activists just doing it. You would never do anything to back up your words, whether or not it’s working through the system.
Plus, what would you say if I told you that I don’t give a shit about your laws? – I’m gonna live like a free person and as long as I don’t hurt anyone then leave me the F alone. MY goal isn’t to change the government, it’s to stop being threatened for living peaceably – if that comes through laws being changed or if they get fed up with trying to enforce their shitty laws on everyone that isn’t obeying I really don’t care. Win Win.
And you’re still just a sadistic sociopath with a fake name on the internet that did nothing for freedom – have fun being a slave.
Sincerely not yours
Kenny
Hey you guys, maybe you should saddle up and head over to Derry and protect those poor non-violent people selling fake handbags and copied CD’s. Sounds like another victimless crime doesn’t it.
Everything that can be said, has been said here. I’d rather not read anymore illogical retorts, folks. As for ENDGAME, and people like him who have been incessantly posting hateful, nonsensical things here… People like you, sir, make people not want to get into politics, because they read your dribble and figure “AH! This is what being politically active is! Screw that.”.
You see, ignorance in such a large quantity spewing out of one location tends to congeal and enter through people’s heads, making them feel ill and muddled.
And no, I’m not “attacking” you (or anyone else here), for if I was, the medium of choice would not be the magically anonymous internet, nor will I have/join some sort of vigil or protest against you, or engage in any sort of physical violence against you. You seem to think in circles, so I figured I’d hit the main bases before you make what you might call “points”, which seem to devolve into what I call “petty threats”. I’m simply stating a fact. A choice, if you will.
This is the choice: If you really feel so threatened by a group of people who want nothing but to regain what rights they think are theirs (and those said rights are not harmful to anyone, mind you), then DO something about it, or fuck off.
The end, roll credits.
Actually, Ihavehadenough, you’ve hit on an interesting debate. I know some who believe in intellectual property rights, and some who do not. Of course, if you believed in intellectual property rights then the victims of the cd copying would be the artists and studios.
In the case of the handbags, if they are sold under the assumption that they are real, I would consider that fraud, which certainly is a real crime — although don’t most people who buy knockoffs know they’re knockoffs? Of course, in the case of fraud, the victim would be the consumer.
In any case, I think there are so many clearly victimless crimes that there’s no reason to bother with borderline cases like that.
@ Might doesn’t make right, idiots.
First off, I’d like to thank you for using your real name. It takes a real man to insult someone behind a complete veil of anonymity.
Second, speaking as someone who actually is descended from Jews who not only survived Nazi Germany but also Czarist Russia, I would like to point out that none of the “injustices” that you Free-Staters are fighting are even remotely analogous to the Holocaust. To suggest so is simply absurd.
Furthermore, Trevor is correct. What a person considers to be morally wrong and right is entirely based on how they were raised. I doubt you could find two people who are totally in agreement as to what is right and what is wrong. Reality is entirely subjective. While you may consider blowing up a building is wrong, someone could very easily see it as an ultimate act of good. Does this make them wrong? Well, certainly. But in their eyes you are just as wrong.
Are you attempting to say that your definition of morality is superior to everyone else’s? Sounds rather dictatorial to me.
No matter what words are written on paper, I have the right to put whatever I want in my body as long as I don’t hurt anybody else. No group of people has the right to tell me what to put in my body even if this group is commonly called the government
Yes, but do you have the right to affect those around you with your reaction to whatever it is you’re putting in your body?
I’d just like to comment on Might doesn’t make Right, idiots.
The name calling is uncalled for. If you want to make a point you should articulate it in a calm, level-headed way. In my opinion anyway. You can do whatever you want obviously but it doesn’t reflect good on yourself (Which you may not care about since you are using a fake name) and some people assume you speak for the rest of the Free Saters or Activists.
As for me, I think it was appropriate to move it over to the side to city hall. I think however there is a LOT of publicity coming from this. Whether it is good or bad is I think yet to be seen.
@Zac
I saw plenty of people smoking cigarettes in the crowds on Main St.
Zac, if, under the influence of a drug you are taking, you harm your neighbors, then you should be held accountable for that crime. The crime would not be the drug use, but the action you took while under it’s influence.
For example, alcohol should not be illegal, but getting in a car and running people over certainly should be. The one is victimless, the other is not.
Paul,
Yes, but if harm and deaths could be prevented simply at the cost of a little chemical comfort, isn’t it worth it?
Zac: Reckless people will always do reckless things on certain drugs. Legalization will not change this in the slightest. Legalization will, however, give us the right to possess said drugs, and to do with them what we wish without being needlessly arrested for an act that does not directly harm anyone. What happens afterward is not affected by legalization, you see. That is up to the user, who makes a conscious choice, and should be punished if they choose to harm another innocent person (who should punish them and how, however, is a completely different argument altogether…)
On a side note, violent crimes while high on pot? Hah. Maybe punching a friend in the arm for him snagging your Doritos… (violent crimes on alcohol? Well, we all know of those to occur. Maybe you should petition against alcohol before marijuana)
And, for the record, I’m against driving stoned, because a punishment for that DIRECTLY prevents accidents.
To Zac:
You wrote “Reality is entirely subjective.” but I think that there is missing an important clarification. Reality is not subjective, rather, each of us perceives the same reality subjectively.
Reality, morality, and ethics, this is heavy stuff.
Please consider an analogy, comparing ethics to mathematics. Neither discipline exists in reality, they are abstractions which exist only in the minds of those who consider such things.
However, that does not mean that there are not things about these subjects which can be proved, i.e. ‘2+2=4′, or ‘it is moral to rape = false’.
Each of us was raised with certain beliefs, especially concerning right and wrong. These beliefs are often founded in superstition, ignorance and fear, which can make them difficult to overcome.
Those of you who wish to impose your beliefs on others need to find clear, consistent, and logical basis on which to prove the correctness of your viewpoint. Without this (and this is now being discovered again in Keene), legitimacy is not possible.
It is my sincerest hope that each of you will choose logic and reason and begin to understand what you really are, however history does not have a great track record in this regard.
Best of luck to you all.
Zac,
People can use drugs in such a way as to not harm others. Those that do so should be left alone. It must always be remembered that the law is force — if someone does something against the law, violence will be used against them. Now, I think most of us agree, at least on a personal basis, that initiating aggressive violence is wrong. The only appropriate use of violence is in self-defense, or in defense of innocents.
In that context, we must be sure that we only make things illegal for which a violent response would be appropriate. It’s right for murder to be illegal, because a forceful response to murder would be defensive. The murder would be the aggressively violent act. The same goes for assault, theft, arson, etc, because these are aggressively violent acts, with victims.
So, I may believe that playing video games is bad for mental health, for example, and might lead to an increased chance of you becoming violent. Or, I may believe that a three mile run every morning will clear your mind and make you less likely to snap. The potential tree of causes, effects, and contributing factors is endless.
I have no right, however, to outlaw all video games, or mandate that you must run every morning. If I were to use violence against you for disobeying my prohibitions or mandates on these topics, I would be the tyrant initiating violence, while you would have been a peaceful person.
In other words, I, as an individual, have the right to self defense against an immediate attack, but it would be wrong for me to threaten peaceful people in order to force them to live a certain way of which I approve. I cannot delegate rights I do not have to a representative, and the moral situation is not different for a government.
The loss of this understanding leads to tyranny — freedom is the ability to make decisions of which others disapprove.
What’s more, even putting aside the moral issue, prohibition doesn’t work. It didn’t work for alcohol, and it doesn’t work for drugs. People use the substances anyway, they just get them from unsafe sources, and enrich violent gangs rather than the corner drug store. Alcohol was the core of Al Capone’s business. When alcohol prohibition ended, prices plummeted, and the mafia largely collapsed. If we were to legalize drugs, the financing would be ripped out from under every street gang in the country, and every cartel overseas. They simply can’t compete with CVS or walgreens. After all — where do you go for alcohol today? I’m guessing not mick on the corner.
Paul-I think you have hit on a very important point in your last paragraph.It covers loss of Liberty,control of the masses,the continued suppression of the poor,and the profit of the few.And all in one succinct paragraph.
In essence-do you think the continued suppression of marijuana is an anti-drug program,or is it kept up because of the immense profit that is being made by a select few?It is currently the largest cash crop in California.Do you think the people growing and selling want legalisation/ Do you think they may have some influence in keeping it illegal? Why is our government fighting a war in Afghanistal to keep in power a corrupt leader that was elected under the most suspect circumstances?A leader of a country that exports opium in vast quantities,compared to the Taliban,who eradicated the poppy crops?The sheer amount of money that makes it worthwhile to keep it illegal is astounding.I work in Malibu,Ca.There were over 30 pot pharmacies when I was there last in Sept. The prescriptions are fairly easy to get.The penalties for public use are still in effect.In other words,go home and smoke your pot.
Look how much money was made with prohibition.And the politicians that got rich.And the mafia didn’t go away afterwards,they just switched to the next lucrative market.Prescription pot is going to happen.I don’t see the total legalisation any time soon-there is too much money in it. —bil
I’m sure there’s no small amount of corruption and kickbacks on this Bil. Even at the small potato level, cops are often caught being involved with drug distribution. Apart from that, police departments themselves get much of their funding and fancy toys to fight the “war on drugs”, and police departments across the country continue to lobby for draconian drug enforcement policies. It is absolutely an industry, on both the “legal” and “illegal” sides of the coin, and it’s an industry that kills and imprisons hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people worldwide.
Just look at the sales of weapons,helicopters,special technology,and the funding for research that is involved.Where is that going? Why do you think we are in ANY war,if not to make some multinational conglomerate more money? And this is nothing,read USMC General Smedley Butler,he exposed all this before WWII,he was not the first.This country was founded by people that were pushing their own financial interests,but got the folks to think it was ‘Liberty’ they fought and suffered for.When it was over,they [government] screwed over the returning vets.[see 'Shays Rebelion,Newburgh Incident].What will happen when the latest batch comes home to find the economy in a shambles,no jobs,no mental or medical support,no one that gives a fuck about them in government.I think that is part of the reason they AREN’T coming back-would you want to have that many armed,pissed off,well-trained people mad at you?
That is the system that we have to deal with,it will resist change because it likes things the way they are.Either try to change it or at least sabotage the parts you can until it changes.There are more important things to be mad about than whether you can smoke a joint on the common.If this is the biggest problem,or the easiest one to deal with,then I think you have proven the opposition viewpoint that pot DOES cause damage. —bil
Bil, I think there are many issues worth addressing. Pot is certainly not the most important issue to me, but judging by the number of victims of the drug war, it’s not an insignificant one either.
In general, my attitude is “both and” rather than “either or”. I suggest you start up activism in the area that most motivates you. If you’re working for more liberty on a meaningful issue, I have no doubt many join in and support your effort.
I do think many were motivated for liberty at the founding of this country, although I am sure there were plenty of weasels then too.
who give a fuck. That man being arrested was a fucking idiot. People like that are making the laws stay the same. Hes probobly some uneducated blue collar worker who gets high everyday. NICE ARGUMENTS! THEY REQUIRED SO MUCH THOUGHT, I NEVER HEARD THEM BEFORE! fucking dumbass. People like you are to blame why this shits illegal. Damn, if i see a dumbass as a leader holding i fucking microphone, im not taking him serious. I hope you read this you FUCKING IDIOT!
Joe,
Do you have a refutation of those arguments? Please explain to me how you own other people’s bodies, or have any right to dictate what they consume, or use violence against them if they don’t obey your arbitrary dictats. Standing up for what is right, despite the consequences, is what brave, principled people do.
It seems we have another angry, illogical person here. Wonderful.
Are you saying smoking marijuana is completely harmless? NOOO! The thing is that you people aren’t even looking at both sides of this argument; you just care about getting high. Why do have to get in an altered state every day? Can you not handle reality? Let me ask you a question, let’s say this country declares war that is completely unnecessary, and in this war only one person gets killed, is it worth it? Only one person died.
Joe, I personally don’t think cannabis is completely harmless, that’s why I choose not to use it (and never have). I recognize, however, that I do not own other people, or their bodies, nor do I have a right to threaten violence against them when they make a choice of which I do not approve.
It’s not about cannabis, it’s about liberty, individual rights, and the abusive behavior of government officials which violates both.
Regarding the war question, no, of course unnecessary war or death is never a good thing. Since you said the war was unnecessary, I am not even sure what exactly the “it” is in your question.
So if legalizing marijuana is really unnessary, and only if one person dies because of it, its not worth it. Thats one life, a life that could of impacted the world. Think of all the love ones he had that are left in pain all because or marijuana is legal.
If you were to bring this issue to congress, would you present it with the same information you are saying now and in the video?
If I had the opportunity to go to congress I wouldn’t bring up any particular issue because I don’t feel like I should have to beg some dipshits in suits for permission to act like a free person.
I would TELL them that I’m a free individual and I’m gonna act like it, and unless they want to be exposed for the violent thugs they are then they need to cut back and stop harassing peaceful people.
If you wanna tell me that acting like free people doesn’t work then obviously you’ve ignored a great chunk of history. Tell black people or the indians who followed Gandhi that civil disobedience doesn’t work. Just spit on all those accomplishments, tool.
“Think of all the love ones he had that are left in pain all because or marijuana is legal.”
Well, considering that the only people who die due to involvement in cannabis were shot by cops or by gangbangers who’s entire existence depends on a black market created by prohibition, I’m gonna go out on a limb (not really) here and say that nobody innocent would be killed from involvement in cannabis if it wasn’t prohibited.
And if by some freak act of god someone did die from cannabis consumption, it would atleast be their responsibility and their voluntary actions that brought it about, not some asshole trying to tell them what to do (cops).
Joe, I could save a lot of lives by locking everyone in white padded rooms 24 hours a day, to avoid injury, and feeding them only vitamin enriched gruel to avoid allergic reaction.
People have a right to make their own choices about their lives, even if those choices end up being harmful to them. I have no right to force my beliefs and opinions regarding good living on other people at the point of a gun.
We used to say, “give me liberty or give me death”. Now apparently it’s, “Take my liberty, please, if you think it could me a little bit safer. Oh, and have my neighbor’s liberty while you’re at it too.”
Bottom line is that if were to kill one life it isnt worth it. This so called “peaceful” drug, isnt peaceful in reality. Overall this country has far more important issues to take care of than focus on this subjuct. Troops are getting killed, you people should be more concerned about that then getting ripped everyday. Plus you little get together on 4:20 isnt going to do shit. Yeah, lets spark a joint infront of cops to make a point. And the point is ” HEY! I SMOKE POT AND I AM A DUMBASS” so the goverment concludes, damn all pot heads must be like them.
xrazorwirex
If you were going infront of congress, they would want to here some educated points and stats. Not some dumbass who just smokes and says im a free individual. You ever listen to the congress men who are for the legalization?
Joe, did you read what I said? The road system kills thousands annually, shall we outlaw roads? People sometimes choke on corn cobs, shall we outlaw corn? Houses sometimes burn, shall we outlaw wood houses? People sometimes get electrocuted, shall we outlaw electricity in the home? People often have heart attacks, shall we outlaw all fatty foods?
After all, if it saves one life, it’s worth it!!
You propose total tyranny over the lives of others, to force them to live only in ways of which you approve, under the guise that it might slightly increase their safety!? How about this: You don’t own other people’s lives, or bodies, so stop dictating your personal beliefs and preferences at the point of a gun, and mind your own damn business.
Yes, moral arguments tend to not work well in front of an audience of cheats, liers, crooks, and tyrants. In fact, I suggest we all think to ourselves, before proposing an action, “would congress support this?” If the answer is yes, don’t do it.
Paul
Come on, the points about corn and shit are very dumb points, and arnt going to get you anywhere with legalizing the drug. The fact is is that marijuana is illegal and is against the law. The guy with the microphone argues marijuana with pharmacutical drugs, so hes advocating madicinal marijuana. How does that involve him. Then he talks about totally legalizing it. I dont think he knows what he is really advocating here. If its one more CHANCE that someone will get hurt and/or die, its not worth it. People who smoke marijuana still smoke it. why do they want it leagal? Either way they still are going to smoke it wheather or not is legal. Again this country has way more important things to work on then this. I want you to think about this, you can give an answer just so you can defend this rally but, Honestly, When you were in high school, and even now that your in college, overall, how are the kids who smoke academics compared to the students who dont? Are they both driven in life? Think about it.
“If its one more CHANCE that someone will get hurt and/or die, its not worth it.”
Joe, innocent people are hurt or even killed all the time by police because of drug prohibition. Check out this site: http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
If you’re so concerned about people getting hurt, you should support the legalization of drugs.
“People who smoke marijuana still smoke it. why do they want it leagal?”
So that they won’t have to be scared that they will be assaulted or kidnapped by the police.
“Honestly, When you were in high school, and even now that your in college, overall, how are the kids who smoke academics compared to the students who dont? Are they both driven in life? Think about it.”
I know plenty of intelligent, driven people who use marijuana (and other drugs) and plenty of idiots who don’t use drugs.
“So that they won’t have to be scared that they will be assaulted or kidnapped by the police.”
Go to congress and argue this one. Come on! That’s not an idiot comment. So when you are smoking in your house police just run though the door and bring you some place that you don’t know of. They keep you against your will? Have you ever been assaulted by a cop? I have, but I’m not arguing that speeding should be legal. I’m sorry man but you’re not too intelligent. And you can say I’m not, but I attend MIT. You guys aren’t doing shit when it comes to changing the laws. You guys are a bunch of wanna be fucking hippies. Marijuana is illegal and always will be. Especially if you guys still get you little stoner get togethers. So thanks for making the stuff stay illegal. It shows people who smoke really are fucking dumbasses
A few points:
1. I don’t consider myself a cannabis consumer; I smoked a bowl or 2 to celebrate the day when over 100 people first showed up at the square in Keene; I don’t live there or I’d be there.
2. I could care less about what congress thinks; you posed the question “if you were sent before congress” and I gave you my response.
3. I also specifically stated that I would say nothing about cannabis if asked to say something to your masters; It’s about being free and I don’t have to justify myself or what I do – I’m not forcing anyone to do anything and I’m not damaging / trespassing on anyone’s property. Tell me how that justifies you telling me what to do. Really.
You dont care what congress thinks? So the drug will never be legalized. It has to pass congress, come on now! And dude, you are free. Go travel the world and you will see your free and very fortunate for what you have here in the US. Dont start preaching freedom because you have it. Again travel to some other countries and come back. You will be much more appreciative of the freedom you have. If you dont like it however, its in your freedom to move out of the country to some where you can smoke into oblivion.
No, Joe, I am not free as long as a bunch of bureaucrats believe they own my body and have the right to enforce whatever arbitrary rules they want over it. I’m not free as long as those bureaucrats believe they own my labor, and steal liberally from my paycheck. I am not free as long as they believe they own my home and can steal it out from under me if I don’t pay their extortion racket. The fact that there exist people in the world who are less free than I does not change that fact, and it is no excuse.
Joe, have you never heard of civil disobedience? It brought the underground railroad, Egyptian independence, Indian independence, The crumbling of the Communist government in East Germany and in what’s now the Czech Republic, the independence of the Baltic states from the USSR, Women’s sufferage, the end of segregation, contributed to the end of alcohol prohibition, and more. Politics, especially at the federal level, is what you do if you want to spin your wheels and get nothing done. Civil disobedience is what you do when you do when you want to effect real change.
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