Video: Pumpkin Fest Crowd Boos Police Thuggery

October 17, 2009 by Ian
Filed under: Copwatch, Issues, Jailed Activist, News, Personal Freedom, Police, Thuggery

Keene police, staties, and others from the surrounding areas cracked down on liberty activists today. Here’s the first video to hit the ‘net showing the initial cannabis arrests. Later police arrested three activists for “trespassing” in the supposedly “public” city lobby.

The opposition claims that no one supports liberty activists in Keene, but that is clearly a nonsense claim:

thevanities

To Zac:

You wrote "Reality is entirely subjective." but I think that there is missing an important clarification. Reality is not subjective, rather, each of us perceives the same reality subjectively.

Reality, morality, and ethics, this is heavy stuff.

Please consider an analogy, comparing ethics to mathematics. Neither discipline exists in reality, they are abstractions which exist only in the minds of those who consider such things.

However, that does not mean that there are not things about these subjects which can be proved, i.e. '2+2=4', or 'it is moral to rape = false'.

Each of us was raised with certain beliefs, especially concerning right and wrong. These beliefs are often founded in superstition, ignorance and fear, which can make them difficult to overcome.

Those of you who wish to impose your beliefs on others need to find clear, consistent, and logical basis on which to prove the correctness of your viewpoint. Without this (and this is now being discovered again in Keene), legitimacy is not possible.

It is my sincerest hope that each of you will choose logic and reason and begin to understand what you really are, however history does not have a great track record in this regard.

Best of luck to you all.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Zac,

People can use drugs in such a way as to not harm others. Those that do so should be left alone. It must always be remembered that the law is force — if someone does something against the law, violence will be used against them. Now, I think most of us agree, at least on a personal basis, that initiating aggressive violence is wrong. The only appropriate use of violence is in self-defense, or in defense of innocents.

In that context, we must be sure that we only make things illegal for which a violent response would be appropriate. It's right for murder to be illegal, because a forceful response to murder would be defensive. The murder would be the aggressively violent act. The same goes for assault, theft, arson, etc, because these are aggressively violent acts, with victims.

So, I may believe that playing video games is bad for mental health, for example, and might lead to an increased chance of you becoming violent. Or, I may believe that a three mile run every morning will clear your mind and make you less likely to snap. The potential tree of causes, effects, and contributing factors is endless.

I have no right, however, to outlaw all video games, or mandate that you must run every morning. If I were to use violence against you for disobeying my prohibitions or mandates on these topics, I would be the tyrant initiating violence, while you would have been a peaceful person.

In other words, I, as an individual, have the right to self defense against an immediate attack, but it would be wrong for me to threaten peaceful people in order to force them to live a certain way of which I approve. I cannot delegate rights I do not have to a representative, and the moral situation is not different for a government.

The loss of this understanding leads to tyranny — freedom is the ability to make decisions of which others disapprove.

What's more, even putting aside the moral issue, prohibition doesn't work. It didn't work for alcohol, and it doesn't work for drugs. People use the substances anyway, they just get them from unsafe sources, and enrich violent gangs rather than the corner drug store. Alcohol was the core of Al Capone's business. When alcohol prohibition ended, prices plummeted, and the mafia largely collapsed. If we were to legalize drugs, the financing would be ripped out from under every street gang in the country, and every cartel overseas. They simply can't compete with CVS or walgreens. After all — where do you go for alcohol today? I'm guessing not mick on the corner.
bil

Paul-I think you have hit on a very important point in your last paragraph.It covers loss of Liberty,control of the masses,the continued suppression of the poor,and the profit of the few.And all in one succinct paragraph.

In essence-do you think the continued suppression of marijuana is an anti-drug program,or is it kept up because of the immense profit that is being made by a select few?It is currently the largest cash crop in California.Do you think the people growing and selling want legalisation/ Do you think they may have some influence in keeping it illegal? Why is our government fighting a war in Afghanistal to keep in power a corrupt leader that was elected under the most suspect circumstances?A leader of a country that exports opium in vast quantities,compared to the Taliban,who eradicated the poppy crops?The sheer amount of money that makes it worthwhile to keep it illegal is astounding.I work in Malibu,Ca.There were over 30 pot pharmacies when I was there last in Sept. The prescriptions are fairly easy to get.The penalties for public use are still in effect.In other words,go home and smoke your pot.

Look how much money was made with prohibition.And the politicians that got rich.And the mafia didn't go away afterwards,they just switched to the next lucrative market.Prescription pot is going to happen.I don't see the total legalisation any time soon-there is too much money in it. —bil
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

I'm sure there's no small amount of corruption and kickbacks on this Bil. Even at the small potato level, cops are often caught being involved with drug distribution. Apart from that, police departments themselves get much of their funding and fancy toys to fight the "war on drugs", and police departments across the country continue to lobby for draconian drug enforcement policies. It is absolutely an industry, on both the "legal" and "illegal" sides of the coin, and it's an industry that kills and imprisons hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people worldwide.
bil

Just look at the sales of weapons,helicopters,special technology,and the funding for research that is involved.Where is that going? Why do you think we are in ANY war,if not to make some multinational conglomerate more money? And this is nothing,read USMC General Smedley Butler,he exposed all this before WWII,he was not the first.This country was founded by people that were pushing their own financial interests,but got the folks to think it was 'Liberty' they fought and suffered for.When it was over,they [government] screwed over the returning vets.[see 'Shays Rebelion,Newburgh Incident].What will happen when the latest batch comes home to find the economy in a shambles,no jobs,no mental or medical support,no one that gives a fuck about them in government.I think that is part of the reason they AREN'T coming back-would you want to have that many armed,pissed off,well-trained people mad at you?

That is the system that we have to deal with,it will resist change because it likes things the way they are.Either try to change it or at least sabotage the parts you can until it changes.There are more important things to be mad about than whether you can smoke a joint on the common.If this is the biggest problem,or the easiest one to deal with,then I think you have proven the opposition viewpoint that pot DOES cause damage. —bil
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Bil, I think there are many issues worth addressing. Pot is certainly not the most important issue to me, but judging by the number of victims of the drug war, it's not an insignificant one either.

In general, my attitude is "both and" rather than "either or". I suggest you start up activism in the area that most motivates you. If you're working for more liberty on a meaningful issue, I have no doubt many join in and support your effort.

I do think many were motivated for liberty at the founding of this country, although I am sure there were plenty of weasels then too.
joe

who give a fuck. That man being arrested was a fucking idiot. People like that are making the laws stay the same. Hes probobly some uneducated blue collar worker who gets high everyday. NICE ARGUMENTS! THEY REQUIRED SO MUCH THOUGHT, I NEVER HEARD THEM BEFORE! fucking dumbass. People like you are to blame why this shits illegal. Damn, if i see a dumbass as a leader holding i fucking microphone, im not taking him serious. I hope you read this you FUCKING IDIOT!
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Joe,

Do you have a refutation of those arguments? Please explain to me how you own other people's bodies, or have any right to dictate what they consume, or use violence against them if they don't obey your arbitrary dictats. Standing up for what is right, despite the consequences, is what brave, principled people do.
JohnnyAppleseed

It seems we have another angry, illogical person here. Wonderful.
Joe

Are you saying smoking marijuana is completely harmless? NOOO! The thing is that you people aren’t even looking at both sides of this argument; you just care about getting high. Why do have to get in an altered state every day? Can you not handle reality? Let me ask you a question, let’s say this country declares war that is completely unnecessary, and in this war only one person gets killed, is it worth it? Only one person died.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Joe, I personally don't think cannabis is completely harmless, that's why I choose not to use it (and never have). I recognize, however, that I do not own other people, or their bodies, nor do I have a right to threaten violence against them when they make a choice of which I do not approve.

It's not about cannabis, it's about liberty, individual rights, and the abusive behavior of government officials which violates both.

Regarding the war question, no, of course unnecessary war or death is never a good thing. Since you said the war was unnecessary, I am not even sure what exactly the "it" is in your question.
joe

So if legalizing marijuana is really unnessary, and only if one person dies because of it, its not worth it. Thats one life, a life that could of impacted the world. Think of all the love ones he had that are left in pain all because or marijuana is legal.
joe

If you were to bring this issue to congress, would you present it with the same information you are saying now and in the video?
http://xrindustries.com xrazorwirex

If I had the opportunity to go to congress I wouldn't bring up any particular issue because I don't feel like I should have to beg some dipshits in suits for permission to act like a free person.

I would TELL them that I'm a free individual and I'm gonna act like it, and unless they want to be exposed for the violent thugs they are then they need to cut back and stop harassing peaceful people.

If you wanna tell me that acting like free people doesn't work then obviously you've ignored a great chunk of history. Tell black people or the indians who followed Gandhi that civil disobedience doesn't work. Just spit on all those accomplishments, tool.
http://xrindustries.com xrazorwirex

"Think of all the love ones he had that are left in pain all because or marijuana is legal."

Well, considering that the only people who die due to involvement in cannabis were shot by cops or by gangbangers who's entire existence depends on a black market created by prohibition, I'm gonna go out on a limb (not really) here and say that nobody innocent would be killed from involvement in cannabis if it wasn't prohibited.

And if by some freak act of god someone did die from cannabis consumption, it would atleast be their responsibility and their voluntary actions that brought it about, not some asshole trying to tell them what to do (cops).
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Joe, I could save a lot of lives by locking everyone in white padded rooms 24 hours a day, to avoid injury, and feeding them only vitamin enriched gruel to avoid allergic reaction.

People have a right to make their own choices about their lives, even if those choices end up being harmful to them. I have no right to force my beliefs and opinions regarding good living on other people at the point of a gun.

We used to say, "give me liberty or give me death". Now apparently it's, "Take my liberty, please, if you think it could me a little bit safer. Oh, and have my neighbor's liberty while you're at it too."
http://6 Joe

Bottom line is that if were to kill one life it isnt worth it. This so called "peaceful" drug, isnt peaceful in reality. Overall this country has far more important issues to take care of than focus on this subjuct. Troops are getting killed, you people should be more concerned about that then getting ripped everyday. Plus you little get together on 4:20 isnt going to do shit. Yeah, lets spark a joint infront of cops to make a point. And the point is " HEY! I SMOKE POT AND I AM A DUMBASS" so the goverment concludes, damn all pot heads must be like them.
http://6 Joe

xrazorwirex

If you were going infront of congress, they would want to here some educated points and stats. Not some dumbass who just smokes and says im a free individual. You ever listen to the congress men who are for the legalization?
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Joe, did you read what I said? The road system kills thousands annually, shall we outlaw roads? People sometimes choke on corn cobs, shall we outlaw corn? Houses sometimes burn, shall we outlaw wood houses? People sometimes get electrocuted, shall we outlaw electricity in the home? People often have heart attacks, shall we outlaw all fatty foods?

After all, if it saves one life, it's worth it!!

You propose total tyranny over the lives of others, to force them to live only in ways of which you approve, under the guise that it might slightly increase their safety!? How about this: You don't own other people's lives, or bodies, so stop dictating your personal beliefs and preferences at the point of a gun, and mind your own damn business.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Yes, moral arguments tend to not work well in front of an audience of cheats, liers, crooks, and tyrants. In fact, I suggest we all think to ourselves, before proposing an action, "would congress support this?" If the answer is yes, don't do it.
joe

Paul

Come on, the points about corn and shit are very dumb points, and arnt going to get you anywhere with legalizing the drug. The fact is is that marijuana is illegal and is against the law. The guy with the microphone argues marijuana with pharmacutical drugs, so hes advocating madicinal marijuana. How does that involve him. Then he talks about totally legalizing it. I dont think he knows what he is really advocating here. If its one more CHANCE that someone will get hurt and/or die, its not worth it. People who smoke marijuana still smoke it. why do they want it leagal? Either way they still are going to smoke it wheather or not is legal. Again this country has way more important things to work on then this. I want you to think about this, you can give an answer just so you can defend this rally but, Honestly, When you were in high school, and even now that your in college, overall, how are the kids who smoke academics compared to the students who dont? Are they both driven in life? Think about it.
Dr. Q

"If its one more CHANCE that someone will get hurt and/or die, its not worth it."

Joe, innocent people are hurt or even killed all the time by police because of drug prohibition. Check out this site: http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

If you're so concerned about people getting hurt, you should support the legalization of drugs.

"People who smoke marijuana still smoke it. why do they want it leagal?"

So that they won't have to be scared that they will be assaulted or kidnapped by the police.

"Honestly, When you were in high school, and even now that your in college, overall, how are the kids who smoke academics compared to the students who dont? Are they both driven in life? Think about it."

I know plenty of intelligent, driven people who use marijuana (and other drugs) and plenty of idiots who don't use drugs.
joe

"So that they won’t have to be scared that they will be assaulted or kidnapped by the police."

Go to congress and argue this one. Come on! That's not an idiot comment. So when you are smoking in your house police just run though the door and bring you some place that you don’t know of. They keep you against your will? Have you ever been assaulted by a cop? I have, but I’m not arguing that speeding should be legal. I’m sorry man but you’re not too intelligent. And you can say I’m not, but I attend MIT. You guys aren’t doing shit when it comes to changing the laws. You guys are a bunch of wanna be fucking hippies. Marijuana is illegal and always will be. Especially if you guys still get you little stoner get togethers. So thanks for making the stuff stay illegal. It shows people who smoke really are fucking dumbasses
http://xrindustries.com/ xrazorwirex

A few points:

1. I don't consider myself a cannabis consumer; I smoked a bowl or 2 to celebrate the day when over 100 people first showed up at the square in Keene; I don't live there or I'd be there.

2. I could care less about what congress thinks; you posed the question "if you were sent before congress" and I gave you my response.

3. I also specifically stated that I would say nothing about cannabis if asked to say something to your masters; It's about being free and I don't have to justify myself or what I do – I'm not forcing anyone to do anything and I'm not damaging / trespassing on anyone's property. Tell me how that justifies you telling me what to do. Really.
joe

You dont care what congress thinks? So the drug will never be legalized. It has to pass congress, come on now! And dude, you are free. Go travel the world and you will see your free and very fortunate for what you have here in the US. Dont start preaching freedom because you have it. Again travel to some other countries and come back. You will be much more appreciative of the freedom you have. If you dont like it however, its in your freedom to move out of the country to some where you can smoke into oblivion.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

No, Joe, I am not free as long as a bunch of bureaucrats believe they own my body and have the right to enforce whatever arbitrary rules they want over it. I'm not free as long as those bureaucrats believe they own my labor, and steal liberally from my paycheck. I am not free as long as they believe they own my home and can steal it out from under me if I don't pay their extortion racket. The fact that there exist people in the world who are less free than I does not change that fact, and it is no excuse.
http://ringingliberty.com Paul

Joe, have you never heard of civil disobedience? It brought the underground railroad, Egyptian independence, Indian independence, The crumbling of the Communist government in East Germany and in what's now the Czech Republic, the independence of the Baltic states from the USSR, Women's sufferage, the end of segregation, contributed to the end of alcohol prohibition, and more. Politics, especially at the federal level, is what you do if you want to spin your wheels and get nothing done. Civil disobedience is what you do when you do when you want to effect real change.