Police Shut Down Cub Scouts’ Cotton Candy Booth and Homeless Shelter’s Bake Sale

What would we do without the heroes in the Keene Police Department? Thank goodness they are here to keep us safe from the criminal Cub Scouts selling us cotton candy and the volunteers at the Hundred Nights shelter selling us baked goods! Here’s the news story from the Sentinel. I heard there was video taken, but I haven’t seen it pop up yet.

Many businesses and nonprofit organizations name Pumpkin Festival as their most profitable selling day or fundraiser.

But a few fundraisers were cut short by police and festival organizers.

Police shut down three vendors for operating without permits this year.

One of them was the Cub Scout Pack 297 cotton candy booth. Den leader Roberta Mastrogiovanni said being shut down was unfair.

“It was very rude to my scouts and people from out of town were witnessing what was going on,” Mastrogiovanni said.

According to Mastrogiovanni, who owns the Corner News, the scouts were selling on her private property next to her store. Permits are required only on city-owned land.

Suzanne L. Woodward, executive director of festival organization Center Stage, said the selling was happening on city-owned property, and that is why it was shut down.

Mastrogiovanni said the scouts had run their booth for the past four years in the same location, and there had never been a problem before.

The scouts moved their operation inside Mastrogiovanni’s store, and continued to sell cotton candy there. They were back outside later in the night.

Another vendor that was shut down was selling on behalf of the Hundred Nights Shelter. The booth was selling baked goods and drinks, according to Donald R. Primrose, who started the shelter last winter.

Members of Free Keene, a local activist group, were staffing the booth, Primrose said.

Primrose was angry at being shut down, and moved the booth from in front of the Apothecary to next to the Hundred Nights facility on Lamson Street, giving away the remaining items for free.

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84 comments
David
David

i forget..........lol

its been a while

:-)

theKINGofKEENE
theKINGofKEENE

#

David on Wed, 20th Oct 2010 7:22 pm

Its not Opinion its fact.

peace

Remind me again, what "fact" are you talking about???...~tKoK.

David
David

Its not Opinion its fact.

peace

theKINGofKEENE
theKINGofKEENE

...already had my ego stroked today, but if you folks wanna keep yakkin' about me, FEEL FREE...~tKoK.

theKINGofKEENE
theKINGofKEENE

David and david, you're both correct. I am self-assured *AND* self-assed...but whether I'm wrong or not is strictly a matter of opinion. I'm not trying to be "right", so what do I care if *YOU* think I'm "wrong"???...Are you my *JUDGE*, now???...

David
David

being "supremely self assured" and being WRONG is not a very good combo

David
David

kok,

Hitler was "supremely self assured" no(?)

seemed like he was anywayz

lol

david
david

I am supremely SELF-ASSURED.

You are supremely SELF-ASSED.

theKINGofKEENE
theKINGofKEENE

"holy_canole", just because *YOU CAN'T*, doesn't mean *I CAN'T*...That's a prime example of what I was saying. You proved my point. You really, really, really, just don't understand. I don't have any idea who you are, but based on what I've read in *YOUR* posts, you are a white woman, less than 30 years old, and born and raised mostly in the Northeast United States. Correct so far, right???..."I'm sorry that you can't wrap you head around the fact that you just don't understand"...give it a few years.~tKoK. PS: I don't care if you, or anybody ever, or never, reads what I write here. I am supremely SELF-ASSURED. ~tKoK.

holy_canole
holy_canole

tKoK,

After the hateful things you said about gay people on the other board, I am inclined to never read one of your posts again. You can't 'hate deeply but love even more deeply' when you say things like that, sorry.

theKINGofKEENE
theKINGofKEENE

I am the King of Keene. I am a foul-mouthed, arrogant asshole. I hate deeply, and love even more deeply..I am dirty, unshaven, and human. I can and will say the most offensive things necessary to break through your mental blocks. I care. I don't care. I'm weird. I'm happy...I'm normal. I'm exactly the same as you. I'm completely different. I think I'm cool. Yes, I can criticize myself better than *YOU* can criticize me...So what???...Anything you people want to add???...

theKINGofKEENE
theKINGofKEENE

Agreed, but I think the ‘burden of proof’ as it were lies on (in this case) Free Keene. It shouldn’t be simply the responsibility of others to have to consciously try to determine all of the individual view points Free Keeners may hold, rather it is the responsibility of those Free Keeners to make their view points known if they don’t want to be considered part of the general movement. ***WTF???...holy_canole, what you're saying is that a website / blog post has the burden of proof???...I sure hope that's a strong website, to carry a heavy load like the BURDEN OF PROOF!!!...Maybe, just maybe, holy_canole, what you MOST don't understand, is the fact that you just don't understand...From reading your many posts on here, your constant wandering off-topic, and your tendency to over-personalize EVERYTHING, I can only conclude that you just don't "get it", you only THINK you "get it" Me???...Well, I don't think you understand at all. But please keep trying. Maybe someday you will finally realize, that the World was not designed either by you, or for you. You only get to live here for a few decades, before you have to give your body back, and leave. It's called "DEATH", and, it sucks no matter how old you are when it happens.

holy_canole
holy_canole

"Not that I’m a “Free Keener” or anything, but personally, I don’t feel there’s anyone I’d be comfortable speaking for me on all issues. I think there are a lot of people in the same boat."

Well I think the fact that you're not a 'Free Keener' explains that at least a little.

"It’d be fair to say FK, as a movement, generally supports the method of civil disobedience. But it’d be unfair to say “FKers just want to party and run around topless” or something like that. These kinds of comments are really based on ignorance."

I think you here the former a lot more than the latter in all serious contexts, don't you?

"But … to go back to our earlier example, if someone yells, “For MLK” while throwing a Molotov cocktail, despite the fact that MLK has specifically spoken against violence, do that man’s actions reflect on MLK himself? Certainly not."

Of course it doesn't, but that is something that is in blatant opposition to what he was advocating. Some of the things people are upset about *aren't* in blatant opposition of what Free Keene advocates, yet attempts to differentiate those acts and what Free Keene supports are not always made. Not to mention, if someone *did* do that, I'm sure MLK would have had to speak out publicly to condemn those actions.

"Remembering to take the exceptions into account when we speak of groups is very important, less we encourage pre-judgment and bigotry."

Agreed, but I think the 'burden of proof' as it were lies on (in this case) Free Keene. It shouldn't be simply the responsibility of others to have to consciously try to determine all of the individual view points Free Keeners may hold, rather it is the responsibility of those Free Keeners to make their view points known if they don't want to be considered part of the general movement.

"It is a bit different however, because the Sentinel is a business with a well ordered structure of authority. I don’t think people would take Ian’s title to mean that every person who works at the Sentinel did not want to print Andrew’s letter — wheras a general statement about “FKers” or “Police” does judge every individual in that category."

I disagree. I think it is a completely comparable situation. The police force and Free Keene are both well ordered and fairly structured (at least on some accounts) what is about the Sentinel being a business with 'authority' that means it is ok to judge the entire group of people based on the actions of (likely) just one person? Ian's statement could just as easily have made people believe that the Sentinel is a biased business, when in fact it may have just been one person's bias. How is that any different than you suggesting that statements about 'the police' would create biases for people?

Paul
Paul

I think that could work well, but I don’t think it is necessary. There are always going to be disagreements within groups, but that still doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be leaders. Why can’t someone step up and be a leader for Free Keene anymore than someone could be a leader for one of these fracture groups?

Not that I'm a "Free Keener" or anything, but personally, I don't feel there's anyone I'd be comfortable speaking for me on all issues. I think there are a lot of people in the same boat.

Whereas, I'd be much more comfortable working under the banner of a particular person, on a particular issue, using a particular method.

As for your other comments about evaluating people on an individual level: as I said before, I agree that it is important to take individual opinions into account, but I think often when those people are voluntarily associated with a group that is working towards a common cause, the chance of there being significant differences in their thought processes is going to prove to be the exception, not the rule.

Welcome to the exception! (lol) Again, I'm not a "FKer", but I know my thought process is quite different from that of many others here ... I'd wager most would say the same.

In other words, I don’t think that stating something like “all of MLK’s followers were against ending racial inequality” is lazy, just as I don’t think saying “Free Keene people want to end state aggression” is lazy. Convenience isn’t always a matter of being lazy. Civil rights activists may not have agreed on how to go about ending civil rights abuses, but does that mean that it is lazy or ignorant to generalize these broader concepts, rather it is easier to get points across when looking at the larger picture, rather than analyzing each individual person’s opinions. (That may be important to do as well, but it doesn’t discredit collectivizing, either)

Good point, and I recognize and appreciate your effort to put things in terms these crazy liberty folks will understand ;). MLK and Gandhi are definitely viewed as a role models to many in the liberty movement, especially that part of the liberty movement that chooses to use CD.

I guess where I have a problem is when it goes beyond this, and unfair attributes are ascribed -- ones not central to the movement, as your examples are, but rather ancillary and only shared by only a few. It'd be fair to say FK, as a movement, generally supports the method of civil disobedience. But it'd be unfair to say "FKers just want to party and run around topless" or something like that. These kinds of comments are really based on ignorance.

There is definitely merit in evaluating broader socio-cultural trends and themes. This doesn’t mean individuals shouldn’t be responsible for their own actions, but it also doesn’t eliminate the possibility of group responsibility. Humans are social by nature, to infer that everything must be qualified on a purely individual level is ignoring one of the key components of human life–that is human interaction and the results it yields.

I'd be careful with the idea of "group responsibility". Now, if the action of an individual is taken with the full support and endorsement of the strong majority of those in a movement, or the leaders of a movement, that action does reflect on the movement as a whole.

But ... to go back to our earlier example, if someone yells, "For MLK" while throwing a Molotov cocktail, despite the fact that MLK has specifically spoken against violence, do that man's actions reflect on MLK himself? Certainly not.

And as for the semantics, I know *I* certainly try to use words like ‘some’ or ‘most’ and others do as well, yet I still get reprimanded whenever I make any sort of suggestion that does not adhere to this individualistic mindset. I think it is more a matter of not having to be concerned with getting bogged down in rhetoric, and being able to carry out a conversation in a colloquial fashion.

I think it's important to be careful however -- collectivism easily leads to bigotry. It'd be easier for me to just say, "Cops don't think for themselves", for example -- but this phrase would have a very serious impact on people's attitudes. Now, instead of approaching a cop with the thought in mind, "I wonder if this is a cop who can think for himself, or one who blindly follows orders", one approaches a cop with the assumption that he/she cannot think for him/herself.

Likewise, if people use general, universalized statements about liberty activists, it makes them unable to meet and understand any particular liberty activist as a unique individual.

Remembering to take the exceptions into account when we speak of groups is very important, less we encourage pre-judgment and bigotry.

And I'd argue police are a far, far more homogeneous group than liberty activists, so the generalizations are even less accurate.

And in case you haven’t noticed, even people like Ian are guilty of having collectivist mindsets…like just recently when he posted “Keene Sentinel Refuses to Publish Andrew Carroll’s Letter.” Was it the entire Keene Sentinel staff which refused to print the letter? Of course not. Would most people understand what Ian meant when he wrote that? Definitely. I called him out on it to show that it is really quite silly and often counter productive to expect everyone to have to tiptoe carefully around language when trying to express a pretty simple idea.

It is a bit different however, because the Sentinel is a business with a well ordered structure of authority. I don't think people would take Ian's title to mean that every person who works at the Sentinel did not want to print Andrew's letter -- wheras a general statement about "FKers" or "Police" does judge every individual in that category.

bil
bil

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sometimes the scary thing here is that some people are actually following the instruction! ---bil

holy_canole
holy_canole

Paul,

"Have a separate website dedicated to each cause. For example, there could be a “Stop the NH state monopoly on liquor” site, a “Stop cannabis prohibition” site, an “End business license requirements” site, etc. If activists at a particular site want a specific leader, they could choose one, perhaps by election. Those most interested in each cause could use that site to coordinate with others working towards that end."

I think that could work well, but I don't think it is necessary. There are always going to be disagreements within groups, but that still doesn't mean there shouldn't be leaders. Why can't someone step up and be a leader for Free Keene anymore than someone could be a leader for one of these fracture groups?

As for your other comments about evaluating people on an individual level: as I said before, I agree that it is important to take individual opinions into account, but I think often when those people are voluntarily associated with a group that is working towards a common cause, the chance of there being significant differences in their thought processes is going to prove to be the exception, not the rule.

In other words, I don't think that stating something like "all of MLK's followers were against ending racial inequality" is lazy, just as I don't think saying "Free Keene people want to end state aggression" is lazy. Convenience isn't always a matter of being lazy. Civil rights activists may not have agreed on how to go about ending civil rights abuses, but does that mean that it is lazy or ignorant to generalize these broader concepts, rather it is easier to get points across when looking at the larger picture, rather than analyzing each individual person's opinions. (That may be important to do as well, but it doesn't discredit collectivizing, either)

There is definitely merit in evaluating broader socio-cultural trends and themes. This doesn't mean individuals shouldn't be responsible for their own actions, but it also doesn't eliminate the possibility of group responsibility. Humans are social by nature, to infer that everything must be qualified on a purely individual level is ignoring one of the key components of human life--that is human interaction and the results it yields.

And as for the semantics, I know *I* certainly try to use words like 'some' or 'most' and others do as well, yet I still get reprimanded whenever I make any sort of suggestion that does not adhere to this individualistic mindset. I think it is more a matter of not having to be concerned with getting bogged down in rhetoric, and being able to carry out a conversation in a colloquial fashion.

And in case you haven't noticed, even people like Ian are guilty of having collectivist mindsets...like just recently when he posted "Keene Sentinel Refuses to Publish Andrew Carroll's Letter." Was it the entire Keene Sentinel staff which refused to print the letter? Of course not. Would most people understand what Ian meant when he wrote that? Definitely. I called him out on it to show that it is really quite silly and often counter productive to expect everyone to have to tiptoe carefully around language when trying to express a pretty simple idea.

theKINGofKEENE
theKINGofKEENE

Maybe. But, they would probably know what "Cupguy"s name is, by now...And, ever heard the line about "grow where you're planted"???...activism, like peace, begins at home...Maybe we're not out fighting bigger evils in the World, because we're too busy fighting all the little evils around here...If an American's civil rights are violated by the gov't, then how is that *NOT* a civil rights issue...The mood at the homeless shelters' usual Sunday night open mike was somber, subdued, & oppressed. Yes, there really were real victims, who were really hurt, by the cops' actions at Pumpkin Fest. I am one of those victims. Geez, if I'd been driving a car, cops mighta' *SHOT ME*!!!...I was a Cub Scout. Yes, this *IS* personal....~tKoK.

david
david

You know Paul, what you say about modern Americans may or may not be true. But I am quite certain that Gandhi, MLK, Rosa Parks amp others frequently mentioned here, would not be involved with Keene Pumpkinfest bake sales, 420 protests, drinking games and drinking in public or public nudity. Perhaps they might be involved with, oh I don't know, real issues, like fighting for the rights of truly oppressed people, actual civil rights issues, real slavery that still exists, the rights of victims and survivors of genocide, true workplace justice and equality for people of all races, genders, sexual orientation just to name a few. And the Cupguy. I know they would be on his side.

theKINGofKEENE
theKINGofKEENE

Paul on Tue, 19th Oct 2010 6:33 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

webelos and brownies

Admittedly I’m ignorant, but those sound like racial terms. If they are, I’d appreciate it if you’d refrain from using such language David.

Hopefully, Paul, you won't have a problem with the fact that I self-identify as a retarded nigger. I'm a retarded nigger, and damn proud of myself. If you think that I'm "racist" because I am a Native New Hampshire Nigger, that's *YOUR* problem. Please keep it to yourself..."Nigger" is not a skin color. It's a social class, or caste. That's why it's called "class warfare"...duh...~tKoK.

theKINGofKEENE
theKINGofKEENE

...once again, the Keene Police Dept. has allowed itself to be used as a private security force, enforcing the irrational & arbitrary dictates of a narrow-minded, petty, money-&-powerv elite, at the expense of not only the Taxpayer, but to the detriment of society as a whole....Having determined that neither the Cub Scouts nor Homeless shelters' bake sales were causing any actual disruption or interference with Pumpkin Fest, KPD should have just let them keep running their bake sales. I am sick & tired, sick & tired, sick & tired, of you people's bullshit...James, you've owned Brewbakers for 3 years. It's running on the inertia/momentum of the previous owners. You really haven't done JackShit w / it, that *I* can see...(Full Disclosure: I like to get coffee & etc., at Brewbakers. Still do...) Downtown businesses get special treatment in Keene, just look at Randy Filiault, & RailRoad Tavern, for proof of some of that "special treatment"..."holy_canole", you're a horses' ass...*NOBODY* thinks Ian or Sam are "good leaders", which is why only *NOBODY* follows them! I'm sorry you just can't wrap your little head around the fact that "FREE KEENE" is only a blog post / web site on the internet...Way to go way, way, way off-topic, kidzzzzzz~tKoK.

David
David

I barely knew it myself lol

Paul
Paul

Whoops, my sincere apologies David, I should have known that.

Btw, the last sentence above should read, "If modern Americans lived in any of the times and cultures where now famous abuse were being perpetrated, I am firmly convinced that the overwhelming majority would happily go along with societal norms tolerating or endorsing the evil, rather than stand up against them" (I got cut off in the middle of an edit)

david
david

Learn your Scouting hierarchy, Paul.

David
David

y

a weblo is a pre boyscout meaning what you are before boy scouts

and a brownie

is what you are before a girl scout

um

you coulda tried a google search

peace

Paul
Paul

webelos and brownies

Admittedly I'm ignorant, but those sound like racial terms. If they are, I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from using such language David.

Paul
Paul

Jeff, what action do you suggest to "stand up for yourself", given that we both oppose violent means?

I'd hope that adults at some point would be principled and mature enough to stand up for the victim against the bully, rather than acting like schoolchildren and mocking the abused, but perhaps I hope to much.

I must say, I've become severely disappointed with the social conscience of the bulk of humanity, at least in this country. Put most of them in any social abuse in history, and they would happily go along with societal norms.

David
David

david,

you are a gadfly bug that needs to be swatted

(bless your heart)

the only saving grace is that you may learn something in spite of yourself by osmosis inadvertently

David
David

they ridiculed my fave (one of my faves)

MARCUS GARVEY ,,,and he was the best

my other fave are John Brown that man had cahones

is the Keene pd gonna arrest the webelos and brownies?

david
david

Dear God, another Rosa Parks analogy. Maybe instead of Swami Sam it should just be Sam, Lord and Savior. When will it end? In all cases of injustice, I think I should ask myself, 'What would Sam do?'

The only answer, of course, would be to whine and taunt the police.

Jeff
Jeff

It sounds like Sam got bullied by the police.

This reminds me of the parable of the sissy on the playground. As long as he keeps crying the other kids will pick on him mercilessly. Even other weak kids will heap laughter and ridicule on the timid one who can't fight his own battles.

But when the crying child takes action and stands up for himself, the bullying stops. He might get roughed up in the first fight, but he gains a measure of respect and everyone leaves him alone from then on.

The police like to oppress the population in unfair ways, and in that regard they are in the role of the bully. If someone stands up for themselves they get chewed up by the establishment.

The result is that the people get browbeaten into submission. If their courage is not on par with their convictions, they just hunker down and try to avoid further conflict.

This informs the actions of FreeKeene.

Sam was arrested awhile back and by all accounts had an awful time. Has that experience changed him? Is he leading a crusade to stop police abuse, or is he trying to stay quiet hoping that they won't notice him?

Nothing came of Sams arrest. No one was held accountable for the myriad injustices heaped upon him. Why do the cops keep bullying him? They know that he won't fight back. Why *shouldn't* they keep bullying him?

(I'm not advocating violence against the police. Don't push the analogy too far or it'll fall off the table and break. I'm saying that charges should have been filed so that in future actions the police know that there will be consequences.)

Like the sissy on the playground, the FreeKeene people get ridiculed because they act like losers, and they get bullied because they act like cowards. Both of these are learned behaviour which can be changed with a little effort and practice.

No one will fight your battles, but lots and lots of people will help *you* fight your battles. This is what leadership and organization are for - lots of people adding a little bit of effort to help you achieve your vision.

Someone asked (in a post) to "show the way".

Start by being the voice of the group. Assess some of the incidents to give people a feel for what the group is about.

For example: "We've decided not to worry about the police actions against the cub scouts. The issues at stake are not very strong, and the incident itself was not flagrant or well documented."

(In your own words, and of course take your own position.)

Remember that Rosa Parks got arrested, was tried, convicted, and lost her job over the bus incident.

...but she also had many people help her and forced the issue using the court's own system of balances. We honour her for her courage, but also because she was successful.

No one remembers Claudette Colvin.

Paul
Paul

HC, here's an idea:

Have a separate website dedicated to each cause. For example, there could be a "Stop the NH state monopoly on liquor" site, a "Stop cannabis prohibition" site, an "End business license requirements" site, etc. If activists at a particular site want a specific leader, they could choose one, perhaps by election. Those most interested in each cause could use that site to coordinate with others working towards that end.

So, for example, you might be comfortable joining the "stop cannabis prohibition" site at this time, but not one for a different issue.

What do you think?

theodorelogan
theodorelogan

"So why shouldn’t someone like Ian take responsibility for allowing certain people to associate with Free Keene"

No, because he can't stop people from being associated with Free Keene. How would he do that?

I'm sure you can understand my skepticism at your suggestions about how to more effectively "run" an organization dedicated to principles you fundamentally disagree with.

I agree that a leader doesn't have to be someone who "gives orders". But if he doesn't, then how can he be held responsible for what other people he doesn't control do?

Paul
Paul

Keep up the extortion and stealing rhetoric, Paul. I’m sure it is serving you well. I just don’t think you will ever accomplish anything with it.

That's not rhetoric, that's what it is. I get a letter on a regular basis from a group of strangers whose services I do not want, and many of whose actions I find morally outrageous, who state in no uncertain terms that if I don't send them money they will send men with guns to lock me in their cage, and steal my home out from under me.

Yet, because the gang enables you to you to force your neighbors to live according to your preferences, and to extort money from them to fund things you support, you want to pretend that all manner of aggression and violence on their part is magically ok. Extortion and theft must be called "taxes" or "eminent domain", murder must be called "collateral damage", slavery must be called "conscription" or "the draft", kidnapping and assault must be called "enforcement" of victimless "crimes", and torture must be called "enhanced interrogation".

Sorry, I'm done playing along with the B.S.

It is not a question of “begging city council for permission to use the land”. It is organizing and planning an event on City property.

On what basis do the men and women calling themselves the "city" own this property?

If you don’t want to organize an event, fine. But don’t complain when someone else does and they don’t do it the way you want.

That's like saying, "If you don't like the way Al Capone is running the alcohol business, start your own". No, I don't have to start my own to say that aggressive violence is wrong, no matter what your cause, business, or event is.

They're extorting innocent people's money to pay for this, by threatening aggressive violence against them, and I absolutely have a right to object to it.

James
James

Keep up the extortion and stealing rhetoric, Paul. I'm sure it is serving you well. I just don't think you will ever accomplish anything with it. It is not a question of "begging city council for permission to use the land". It is organizing and planning an event on City property. Go to any event, Art In The Park, The Waldorf Crafts Fair, there are plenty of others, and try to set up shop without the organizers permission. See how they react. If you don't want to organize an event, fine. But don't complain when someone else does and they don't do it the way you want.

Paul
Paul

It would be great if I could do what ever I wanted on the sidewalk, but that isn’t my property, nor under my lease. Like it or not, the City decides what goes on there.

On what moral basis? If I steal money from you, and use it to purchase land, or even just to maintain it, do you think I have a right to exclude you from that land?

If I don’t like it, I’ll work to change it and elect people who I know share my views.

Do you think a majority has a right to extort money from their neighbors, use it to maintain land, and then exclude them from that land?

I wholeheartedly oppose the assumption that basic morality doesn't apply to the winners of popular votes.

Otherwise, you aren’t getting anything accomplished, you are just crying and whining about the evil state.

Awareness has to precede change, and I think this abuse by police and by center stage has done a great deal to raise awareness.

One of you guys should step up to the plate with a plan, instead of whining about it.

I don't think anyone here is going to be keen on begging city council for permission to use the land, which would probably be step 1. Personally, I'm more interested in using my limited time to help those in need, and work to reduce aggression.

James
James

"But, your account is useful information — and I’m certainly glad you were not harassed for selling whoopee pies, and I commend you for loaning your space for such a good cause.

Personally, I think the sidewalk sections should be given back to the business owners that abut it — so what you allow or disallow in front of brewbakers would be up to you."

Paul, the point is that they never would have been 'harassed' on private property. For that one day, the sidewalks are contracted to Center Stage. Just like other events on City property. The Waldorf School holds a Crafts Fair at the Rec Center every year. Since it is public property, should I be able to go and set up a table and start selling whatever I want with out paying the fee? I don't think the other vendors would be too happy with that.

It would be great if I could do what ever I wanted on the sidewalk, but that isn't my property, nor under my lease. Like it or not, the City decides what goes on there. If I don't like it, I'll work to change it and elect people who I know share my views. Otherwise, you aren't getting anything accomplished, you are just crying and whining about the evil state. The Pumpkin Festival never would have been here if it wasn't for the people at Center Stage getting it organized. It is a little more than disingenuous for people to whine about having to pay a fee to sell stuff, after the organizers attracted 70,000 people to the event. I don't like all the controls and things they do either. They give away free coffee, that doesn't help my business. But if they didn't organize it, it wouldn't happen.

I think it is still open for next year. One of you guys should step up to the plate with a plan, instead of whining about it.

Paul
Paul

Thank you. But yes, I actually do think that asking people not to collectivize ideas is ‘too much.’ Subtle nuances become less relevant when looking at the larger picture, and I don’t think it is necessarily detrimental to collectivize ideas–usually, finding common ground and working towards that is more effective than working towards each individual, slightly different goal.

There is one goal, I would say: ending tolerance for aggression.

There are, however, many different ideas about the best methods to use towards that end.

Not to mention, when observing a movement from the outside, it is hard to judge ideas and persons individually when all the information you can garner is on a group level.

I wish people would take the time. The thing is, members of the liberty movement are so diverse, that to have more or less homogeneous groups would require a very large number of groups.

I don’t necessarily understand why ‘collectivizing’ is always so negatively stigmatized. Yes, it can be dangerous to judge a group based on superficial commonalities, but is it wrong to acknowledge these basic commonalities at all? I don’t think so.

People do tend to get judged, unfairly, for the actions of others, which they often don't even agree with. It's assumed everyone in the group is the same, when that's usually far from the case.

Although people associated with Free Keene may not be working towards all of the same specific goals, I think it is safe to say that they all hold common beliefs on a fundamental level, so what is wrong with recognizing that?

There's nothing wrong with recognizing that -- free keene folks are generally anti aggression and pro liberty. That's the purpose of the group, after all. Sometimes it seems that the actions of one or two people, however, which the majority may even oppose, are ascribed to the whole group.

It's easy to group people together and assume they're all the same ... but it's really unfair, lazy thinking.

I mean, I don't assume all cops are the same, for example -- and they dress the same, get paychecks from government, etc. Often words like "most" or "some" can be very helpful. E.g: "Most" cops "seem" not to follow their own consciences, or minds, but instead just blindly enforce the diktats of politicians.

It'd be unfair for me to say "Cops don't follow their own consciences", because I'm sure there are a few who do -- I'm sure some choose not to enforce bad laws.

There is strength in numbers–resorting to excuses like ‘we are all individuals’ (no matter how logistically ‘true’ that statement may be) when something goes wrong, disseminates the force of collective power and ultimately stunts the growth of the movement, I believe. If there is a sense of group desire (ie, the drive to work towards liberty) there also has to be a sense of group accountability and responsibility.

Can't the individual be responsible for their own actions? I mean, suppose someone acts in a way most don't approve of. What would you like to see happen?

You're certainly right that strong leaders have been very successful in the past. While there are certainly people who have greater influence than others, perhaps such a leader just doesn't exist at this time.

holy_canole
holy_canole

Paul,

Thank you. But yes, I actually do think that asking people not to collectivize ideas is 'too much.' Subtle nuances become less relevant when looking at the larger picture, and I don't think it is necessarily detrimental to collectivize ideas--usually, finding common ground and working towards that is more effective than working towards each individual, slightly different goal.

Not to mention, when observing a movement from the outside, it is hard to judge ideas and persons individually when all the information you can garner is on a group level.

I don't necessarily understand why 'collectivizing' is always so negatively stigmatized. Yes, it can be dangerous to judge a group based on superficial commonalities, but is it wrong to acknowledge these basic commonalities at all? I don't think so.

Although people associated with Free Keene may not be working towards all of the same specific goals, I think it is safe to say that they all hold common beliefs on a fundamental level, so what is wrong with recognizing that?

There is strength in numbers--resorting to excuses like 'we are all individuals' (no matter how logistically 'true' that statement may be) when something goes wrong, disseminates the force of collective power and ultimately stunts the growth of the movement, I believe. If there is a sense of group desire (ie, the drive to work towards liberty) there also has to be a sense of group accountability and responsibility.

bil
bil

While it may look like a threat to remind Sam about his probation (and it may be,I don't know) it would have been easy for the cop to say nothing until Sam did something that could be interpreted as a violation,then have his probation revoked. Threats and warnings sometimes sound alike.

While I certainly do not approve of the shutting down of the sale or cub scouts,I think it was handled by both parties much better than other events in the past. And yes,I was there at both actions. The fact that so much of the public was also there may have had an effect,also. Nacht und Nebel works better. Sorry to hear that the compromise move was also shut down.

One of the big problems I have is the city council declaring everything public property for the day. Is this some form of martial law? Is it even legal? I would imagine what they did was to declare all public property to be under the control of Center Stage for the day,but how far does that extend? Main street? 50 feet back?

Or does it extend to the city limits? What was also interesting was the crowd control action as soon as the fireworks ended.Loudspeakers telling everyone they must be off the streets immediately,so cleanup could begin.No liesurely stroll back to your car,maybe enjoying the pumpkins better as the crowd thinned. No,it was bullhorns or the loudspeaker,very harsh and authorative.Not what I would call a nice ending.

Yes,the streets had to be cleared so the cleanup crews and trucks could work safely.But a little bit of time could have been given.This was before the 'riots' that occured later,and in another part of town,toward the college. The police could have done a nicer job of ending the event,instead of a 'all over,get the fuck out' attitude. And I know some of the cops were not familiar with the city,having been brought in from elsewhere.In fact,there were several that Hitler gave the night off directing traffic-you know who you are.

Continuing with my rant-- how true,I don't know,anyone with the facts,please enlighten me. I was told that formerly the leftover pumpkins were used as pig food,but now because of some rule,they had to go to the dump.or more accurately,the contracted waste disposal site. I remember reading that Keene city council was discussing the fact that some folks and haulers were sending their garbage to cheaper facilities,and was cutting into the revenue stream,so all garbage must go to the Keene dump. If true,this would mean they even own your trash. Enough of this off-topic. Nice to see positive protest since some actual money was raised for the shelter.good cooking,too.Hard to believe at least one cop couldn't resist the baked goods! ---bil

Paul
Paul

You make decent points HC ... people do seem to have an easier time understanding groups when they have clear leaders. Historically, these leaders are the intended new political leaders (kings, etc).

I really wish people in general could learn to judge ideas, persons, and actions individually, rather than collectivizing people into the modern equivalent of tribes, and judging them that way. Perhaps that's asking too much.

Agustin Koda
Agustin Koda

This story made it into the morning news mix this morning on WTAM 1100 out of Cleveland Ohio. It's a good way to get people thinking about why it is we obey bad or arbitrary rules and what the proper role of the law is in a civil society.

Paul
Paul

Obviously, Paul and Vince, a threat can be phased as ‘advice’, but it is only a threat if a condition is put on it. A cop reminding someone he is on probation is not a threat.

No, it can still be a threat. For example, suppose you're saying something I don't like to a group of people, at which point I say, "Remember James, I know where you live". That's an implied threat.

Me telling someone the police are drooling to get their hands on him is not a threat. Twist things around however you want. You are getting very good at it Paul.

I'm not twisting anything. And yes, a statement expressing your desire that someone do something, followed by something like, "Remember, the police are dying to get their hands on you, and I can hand you over to them" is absolutely a threat.

Look, this is water under the bridge, I'm not trying to dredge this up again -- you deserve to be able to move on. All I'm saying is, depending on context, "advice" certainly can constitute a threat.

All I know is I never paid any kind of fee to Center Stage, extortion or otherwise. And I have never had a problem.

You were forced to pay the Keene city government for the maintenance of the square, however -- that was the extortion I was referring to.

But, your account is useful information -- and I'm certainly glad you were not harassed for selling whoopee pies, and I commend you for loaning your space for such a good cause.

Personally, I think the sidewalk sections should be given back to the business owners that abut it -- so what you allow or disallow in front of brewbakers would be up to you.

holy_canole
holy_canole

"As the leader, it is YOUR decisions that you take responsibility for. Like your decision to hire that person. And yes, the CEO should indeed take responsibility."

So why shouldn't someone like Ian take responsibility for allowing certain people to associate with Free Keene? It's the same issue of protecting your image--an issue Ian, Sam, or someone else doesn't seem to want to have to deal with...which is what I believe discredits their commitment.

"Why do you need a leader to do this? Can’t Ian (and other Free Keeners) call out people whose behavior they don’t agree with without having a leader?"

Yes, but if you read back you will see that this whole conversation was started on the basis of effectiveness. Jeff suggested that most, if not all successful social movements come hand-in-hand with a leader willing to take the blame *and* spearhead the cause. Without a clear driving force, it just becomes an ambiguous mess of people, not a clear, concise push for change.

"To have a leader, you have to have followers. Does the Free Keene crowd seem like the kind of people who are willing to take orders to you?"

Since when does being a follower imply that you have to take orders? Can't following someone be voluntary? A leader doesn't have to order people, he/she has to motivate them and make them *want* to follow him/her.

Vince
Vince

"A cop reminding someone he is on probation is not a threat."

Yes, it is.

James
James

Obviously, Paul and Vince, a threat can be phased as 'advice', but it is only a threat if a condition is put on it. A cop reminding someone he is on probation is not a threat. Me telling someone the police are drooling to get their hands on him is not a threat. Twist things around however you want. You are getting very good at it Paul. All I know is I never paid any kind of fee to Center Stage, extortion or otherwise. And I have never had a problem. But let's remember, none of this would ever happen if Center Stage didn't put on the Pumpkin Festival. If you guys want to run it another way, have at it. Something tells me it would be as well attended as the Free Keene Fest. Except there wouldn't be the few extra thousand people still in town that happened on to your event this year.

Paul
Paul

had those involved actually wanted to help the homeless, and not just get publicity for themselves

Do you think it's possible for people to want to take a stand against bad laws for reasons other than to gain publicity for themselves?

Advice is not a threat.

Uh, yes it can be, e.g.: "I advise you to hand over your wallet if you don't want to get shot"

I know. I tried to give you some and that is what you ignorantly accused me of as well, doing so to try and promote your own purposes.

I heard it, and what you said absolutely sounded like a threat. You implied that you could have Sam locked up for a year, so you "advised" him that he play ball.

What the cop said here sounded a lot like a threat to me too. Sam was standing there talking to them, when he "warned" sam about his bail -- obviously trying to thwart Sam's speech.

It had everything to do with trying to create a scene.

The police and center stage created a scene. They should have left the boy scouts and 100 nights alone. And the boyscouts had been in the same spot for years.

If Free Keene thinks they can do a better job, why don’t you step up to the plate?

Personally, a pumpkin festival is not something I'd be motivated to spend the bulk of my time and effort on.

Open it up to any vendor who wants to show up. Don’t charge fees

People being forced to pay for the upkeep of these areas have a right to use them. You can't extort money from them, use it to maintain land, and then charge admission or restrict access to that land by those people.

If a pumpkin fest were to be held on this taxpayer funded land, it would have to be a very open event, yes.

Personally speaking, if keene city council were to transfer central square to a voluntary organization, and give everyone in keene a chance to join, I would respect the decisions of that organization.

or have any rules Well, rules against harming persons or property could be enforced -- no smashing pumpkins, etc.

Vince
Vince

"Advice is not a threat."

Hey, buddy, if you don't watch your mouth, it might get bloodied.

Just some friendly advice.

James
James

This entire situation could have easily been avoided, had those involved actually wanted to help the homeless, and not just get publicity for themselves. I own a business on Main street. I have not paid for permits or 'protection money' to sell at the Pumpkin Festival for the 3 years I have owned it. I have been out front each year, selling coffee, pastries etc., and never been hassled, because I am on my property. These folks were on the sidewalk, not private property. This year I had several officers come and buy coffee from me on the sidewalk. No problems. I spoke to the people for Center Stage during the day. No problems. This year I sold pumpkin whoopie pies as a benefit for the Keene Community Kitchen. Again, no problems. We were on private property. There are plenty of spaces on Main street where this could have been set up, if those who organized it had done it properly. I know of at least 1 storefront that was closed. You could have contacted the property owner to see if they would be willing to let you use it. That is what the Community Kitchen did with me, and I was glad to offer my space for them, free of charge, and in a spot where I could have easily put more of my products out to sell. Other businesses have space on their property where you could set up a small stand off the sidewalk. There would not have been a problem, but there would not have been any 'publicity' for FreeKeene, either.

I also find it interesting that Sam continues to taunt the police, and when they give him some advice and remind him he is on probation, he takes it as a threat. You really, really need to grow up Sam. Advice is not a threat. I know. I tried to give you some and that is what you ignorantly accused me of as well, doing so to try and promote your own purposes.

This incident had little to do with the homeless shelter or the Boy Scouts. It had everything to do with trying to create a scene.

The Pumpkin Festival has been put on for 20 years by Center Stage. I certainly don't agree with all, or even most of what they do. But they are the ones who organize it, set it up, clean up and pay for it. It has been their show. But now it is now open for somebody else to run it. If Free Keene thinks they can do a better job, why don't you step up to the plate? it is a perfect opportunity to show your organizational and promotional skills. And you won't even have to start it up from scratch like Center Stage did. There are tens of thousands of people who are just waiting to come back for next year. Sam, you were taunting the person from Center Stage, saying that this is the reason the Pumpkin Festival is 'dying'. Well, show them the right way to run it. Open it up to any vendor who wants to show up. Don't charge fees or have any rules. See if you can get this many people coming back year after year. How many came up specifically for the Free Keene Fest? It didn't look to me like 70-80,000, but I could have miscounted by a bit.

Vince
Vince

"Why? You said that you can’t take responsibility for someone’s actions other than yourself."

As the leader, it is YOUR decisions that you take responsibility for. Like your decision to hire that person. And yes, the CEO should indeed take responsibility.

"If someone did something that Ian didn’t feel was appropriate in light of what Free Keene was trying to accomplish, he would have to publicly state that he didn’t think those actions were appropriate."

Why do you need a leader to do this? Can't Ian (and other Free Keeners) call out people whose behavior they don't agree with without having a leader?

To have a leader, you have to have followers. Does the Free Keene crowd seem like the kind of people who are willing to take orders to you? :)

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