What Can You Do When You Don’t Approve of Police Actions?

Originally posted at CopBlock.org:

Lets assume you’re the owner of a business and you employ five people. One day you find out that one of your employees is threatening people to make sales. You didn’t approve of this tactic and quickly move on this information. You call in the employee and address the situation. You explain to them that threatening people is not how you conduct business and even though it might produce larger sales in the short term, it will ultimately destroy the company – ending both your jobs. Hopefully the employee will understand and adapts (or atleast respects) to your request. Though it’s possible they wouldn’t (adapt) and you’d have to fire them. Either way, in business, when you don’t agree with your employee (or with your employer) you have the option to end the relationship (on either side).

Let’s go one step further and bring police into the scenario. Police are paid for with tax dollars and tax dollars are collected from taxpayers. Essentially, taxpayers are the employer’s of the police and, just like any other business, the employer has the right to tell the employee if (and/or when) they don’t approve of their employees actions. Right? Yet, there is NO real course of action one can take to stop police from doing something you don’t like or want, like regular employers can. You can’t physically stop the police officer, nor can you fire a police officer and you can’t stop paying taxes either – we all know what happens if you do. So, what can you do?

You could attend police committee meetings and beg those individuals to change police policies. It didn’t work for us in Greenfield but you may have better luck. You could vote, in sheriff elections and/or higher offices to change laws, but that’s been happening for decades and voting on the lesser of two evils, is still evil. You could file complaints against officers but don’t hold your breath, often cops are cleared of wrong doing when investigated by other cops (see thin blue line). You could visit local politicians and ask for their support but again, don’t expect them to jump on your side, they work hand and hand with one another.

Truthfully, and sadly, there’s nothing you can do because unlike the private business example, where you can talk to or fire your employee, the police (politicians and all other government agents) don’t care what you think or want. They demand you pay for their ‘professions’ and all the expenses needed to carry them out without question.

Ian Freeman, co-host of Free Talk Live – a nationally aired, liberty minded, talk radio show – who found himself in this exact predicament last year. The Keene Police were called to Central Square, a common area where folks gather on warm summer days, in Keene, New Hampshire, because someone was filling water coolers out of the public fountain (yes, this started over people trying to stay hydrated). While there the police noticed several others drinking beer and asked them to pour it out. A conversation followed and the police issued a verbal warning and left.

The police came back a short while later. Ian and I were in the park when Keene police arrested Heika for open container. At that point Ian had decided, as the employeer of the police (his employee) – since his tax dollars fund police actions – that he would sit infront of the police cruiser attempting to transport Heika who was arrested for open container in public. This was a display of disapproval by Ian. (see video below)

Instead of listening to Ian, as most employees would (or they’d quit), the police arrested Ian and charged him with Obstructing Government Administration as well as Resisting arrest. For the “crime” of expressing his displeasure toward the service being provided – at the barrel of a gun, since we all know what happens if you don’t pay (the man) taxes – Ian Freeman was sentenced to 360 days in jail. Stayed for 90 days in jail and 2 years of good behavior – he was found not guilty of resisting.

Think about this folks. The government forces you to pay taxes, right? If you don’t – you go to jail. If you do pay the government continues to spend your money and create more laws. Most of those laws you may not like but, regardless, they’ll ask for more money, to hire more people, to enforce more laws. Until one day they’ll come for you (and/or your family/loved ones) using high tech weapons and on salaries you’ve paid (atleast in part) for. Seriously, is there nothing more ironic than being arrested by a person whom which you pay their salary, I don’t think so? Well a side from being jailed in a place that you also pay for. Think about that the next time you see your local police officer in your rearview mirror and you get that nervous/scared feeling in your stomach. Ask yourself, “What other service do I pay for that makes me feel scared/nervous?”

I bet the answer is none.

Please consider mailing Ian via Mail-To-Jail.com.

52 Comments

  1. I wrote this song to suggest one possible answer to the always-knotty "What is to be done?" question. The trick seems to be in convincing people early enough that it's too risky NOT to take risks.

    Coincidentally, and fittingly, I presented this at a local songwriters' meeting I've been attending. I worried a little that my topical approach might engender hostility–but they liked it!

    WITHHOLDING TAX

    When I'm unhappy shopping at a local store,

    I tell them they won't get my money anymore.

    My friends do, too, and when the loss gets too expensive,

    The store adjusts the policy we found offensive.

    A hundred times a year, I hear of some new law.

    I fume and fuss, declaring, "That's the last damn straw!

    "I'll take my business somewhere else," I start to say,

    But government still gets my money anyway.

    They're unrelenting in their revenue collection,

    Financing their corruption dancing on our backs.

    So many hidden charges, they escape detection,

    Along with the overt ones, like withholding tax.

    Withholding tax! Withholding tax!

    They have us by the you-know-where with the withholding tax!

    They've smarmily convinced you that you have a voice—

    Every several years, you get to make a choice

    In how the money's spent, and what the leaders do:

    You pick the lesser evil from a slate of two.

    Pretending that they're acting at the citizens' command,

    They've written laws we normal folk can't understand,

    Interpreting them as they like, to help conceal

    The ways they bully, chisel, swindle, lie, cheat, and steal.

    It's not enough to vote or write in to the editor—

    To really give these greedy, wasteful crooks the ax,

    And say "Go fly a kite" to our persistent creditor,

    It's time to change the meaning of "withholding tax."

    Withholding tax! Withholding tax!

    They're not the only ones to get by with withholding tax!

    Seen case-by-case, the problem may appear to be insurmountable,

    Their power's Brobdingnagian, and their influence unnerving.

    From now on, each government worker must be made to be held accountable—

    To truth, to you, to the public, and to the laws they say they're serving.

    It's time to make them realize just who they're working for.

    We're mad as hell, and we won't take—or give!—any more!

    We throw the rascals out, but just get new rascals in.

    To change, the system needs to take a bop to the chin.

    Every other effort's exhausted, except

    A good, well-aimed kick in the place their wallets are kept.

    It means coordinating our efforts with others,

    And often acting as the keepers of our brothers.

    Stand up by the hundreds, they can't jail us all!

    Together, we can make Leviathan fall!

    It's going to require all the strength you have within you,

    But once committed, don't relent, no, or relax.

    It's hard, but not as hard as letting it continue.

    We can change the crooked system by withholding tax.

    Withholding tax! Withholding tax!

    Until they clean up their corruption, we're withholding tax!

  2. Unless you have a camera ,and want to deal with court battles-which you may "win" if you have a camera- so imho unless you have a camera it's best to either not communicate with cops (which I have a big mouth) or …I dont know all I know is their word is winning in court so,,just know that

  3. Everything you wrote here is like "duh." But it's so far over the heads of 95% of the population. Sad, really.

  4. TO: "Sam A. Robrin": You call *THAT* a "song"…???….WTF???….it *MIGHT* work as song lyrics, but as a poem, as poetry, frankly, it sucks…it doesn't scan well, the rhymes are awkward, and forced, and the meter is positively crippled. Polish it up some, and you might have something. But, as presented above, your English professor gives you a D…Try again. …////…..But, I do agree with most of the ideas expressed in "Withholding Tax". Try a re-write…But, thanks anyway, Sam, you get a B+ for the *EFFORT*…much as I'm un-impressed with your "song", I have to give you credit for at least trying to do something. I'm glad you put in the effort. Keep writing.

  5. tKoK-try singing it to the tune of 'The Star Spangled Banner",it sort of works! —bil

  6. Unless you are paying property tax in Keene, you're not paying for KPD. But regardless, each taxpayer isn't an employer – at least to the extent that any person has a say in what an officer can/can't do. More of a stockholder I would say. Don't forget, cops pay taxes too, but that doesn't mean he can or even should tell a fireman what to do at a fire. You can voice displeasure – just like someone can voice approval. This idea that taxation is theft is stupid. Death and taxes – they're everywhere ; it is unavoidable. And as you bomb around this nation in your RV on freshly paved highway, over bridges, flushing toilets at rest areas etc, sending mail through the post office, or stopping at friends house who is on welfare due to hard times. – you should have enough brains to realize that without taxes, there wouldn't be any of it. The government forces us to pay taxes? People are the government. Friends, neighbors, people you grew up with playing ball or skateboarding…..just regular old people. A cop, a fireman, a town manager, a postal worker, a janitor at the rest area, the snowplow guy in winter……they are not actively participating in a scam that benefits them personally. It's a job. No different than a plumber. Except taxes pay for it – and we need all these people to keep the system working – unless you want to just start taking shits on the side of the road. Just my opinion; I'm sure someone will have something snarky to say about it. Remember…what is the first thing Ian Freeman screamed when the dopey ambulance guy took his camera? "POLICE!". The second phrase was "I want him arrested". He didn't ask for an investigation….he said ARREST him.

  7. Matt,

    When a bureaucrat pays taxes, he/she is paying them with tax money that was already confiscated. That is a net loss, FYI.

  8. If what you said was true, gov't would be a perpetual motion machine, everyone could just work for it and it would fund itself.

    Oh, and renters pay there landlord's taxes. It's called overhead.

  9. And I buy toilet paper at Wal-Mart. Doesn't mean I run the joint and can walk in and tell someone to go mop the floor in aisle five. And just because my 10 cent tax was included in the purchase price of my toilet paper, doesn't mean I am a defacto local taxpayer because Wal-mart pays taxes to the town. And nice try on the landlord bit. Sorry – unless you are getting a tax bill in the mail – you're not a taxpayer (in terms of local taxes). no matter how you try to justify it. And what I said was true. Did you drive to work today? Were you able to cross the street in relative safety because the cars stopped at a red light? Ever thanked God for a guardrail? If you abolished taxes today, are you going to transport the 40,000 pound I beam on your wheelbarrow for an outdated bridge? For free?

  10. Matt–

    I wrote this contrafactum just for you!

    THE TRACTABLE TAX-PAYER ("The Universal Soldier"—Buffy Sainte-Marie)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT6NRc37T_8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYEsFQ_gt7c

    He's 88 and he's just 14,

    He runs cartels and Kool-Aid stands.

    He is rich, he is poor, and he's mostly middle-class—

    And just Plasticine in politicians' hands.

    He's a Democrat, Republican, a Labour, and a Green,

    Non-partisan, or "independent," too.

    Though the debt is always there,

    He's content to fund "his share"—

    Just as long as he pays less of it than you.

    He's dunned for income, labor, savings, sales, and property,

    On gas, food, clothing, and utilities.

    It's the price he has to pay

    (So the crooks who profit say)

    To remain secure from unknown enemies.

    He knows there's waste, corruption, cronyism, graft, and theft,

    Which unintended consequences bring.

    Though he'll never have enough,

    They let him have enough to lose,

    So he shrugs and pays and says, "Let freedom ring." [sound of cash register]

    But without him, how would SWaT teams kill his child in the night?

    Without his bailouts, bad debts break the bank.

    His money and obedience fund tyranny world-wide.

    All dictators have his meek assent to thank.

    He's the tractable tax-payer, funding his—and your—demise:

    Willing subject to the bureaucratic whim.

    Who must die before he'll see

    There can never really be

    Protection from the State "protecting" him?

  11. I read the first four lines; it sucked, so I skipped down a few paragraphs and still held the same opinion. And I only watch youtube videos that I have an interest in – I am fully capable in understanding the search feature myself. Next time, save yourself some time and simply write fuck off – it's far more poetic than your blathering scribbles and links

  12. Don't quit your day job, Sam. That is, if you have one.

  13. You have a choice to enter Walmart and which plumber you use, or you can do your own plumbing (at least for now). You have options. Nobody at Walmart is going to point a gun at you and make you patronize the store. If somebody does, you are within your rights to exercise whatever amount of force is necessary to prevent it. Try that with a cop.

    That's the difference.

    Nobody expects roads to be free, I just think the gov't sucks at it. I would gladly pay someone else to handle it. If the gov't stuck to roads and traffic lights, you wouldn't be hearing from me. It's like you believe that the gov't doesn't waste money by the billions and trillions and everything they do is for your benefit and not to your detriment. $200/gallon for diesel fuel to run generators that air condition tents in the desert.

  14. That was a boring 30 seconds of self-important media attention ( it was self promoting trash that I stopped at :30). I still laugh with the other hecklers. This is a flashback, Nothing doing currently Ian?

    As long as you are still making all the GOVERNMENT (which you despise so much) money….and you have the weak minded to "donate" it.

    Proper theft being done.

  15. ..returning to the original post. Well written and does raise some very valid points.

    Good job!

  16. @Matt

    I'm curious who resides in Keene that doesn't pay property taxes that finance KPD. Do you know of any, other than those who are homeless?

    You're correct that residents aren't authentic employers of "public servants", but nor are they any more stockholders. Employer-employee and stockholder-firm relationships are voluntary, mutually agreed, contractual, and terminable. No aspect of my, or any individuals relationship to any government has those attributes. That is a fact. It is simply incorrect to compare them because they are entirely different.

    You haven't demonstrated that taxes aren't theft. Instead it seems that you've insinuated that because taxes are constant or unavoidable, that taxes aren't theft. That is a non sequitur.

    Why do you think that without coercive central authority, there wouldn't be bridges or toilets or mail delivery? Do you have any valid reason to believe that?

    Without the state, there would be the same amount of resources. Only they could be allocated more rationally. The state provides services, but only as a necessary concession, without which rebellion would follow. Marginal concessions in the form of poorly provided vital services (incidentally maintained by coercive monopoly) ensure that most will people believe that the state is a valuable, necessary entity, rather than a disguised form of parasitism. There is no thing that states do that ordinary people or groups of people cannot do.

    It's not true that we are the government. Government is the means by which people attempt to legitimize enforcement of their will on others. I don't do that. Therefor I am not part of the government. Do you attempt to legitimize enforcement of your will onto others? Are you part of the government?

    The government system is a scam at all levels. Not all participants are scammers. Some are reaping the benefits of the scam and don't consciously know they are participating in a corrupt system of wealth transfer. That doesn't make it any less corrupt though.

    What point are you trying to make about Ian requesting the police to arrest the theif who stole Ians' phone? Is the action of theft any different when done by someone employed by the state?

  17. Ryan,

    If you want to terminate your relationship with Keene, there are a good number of people who will gladly help you pack your stuff onto a plane to central Africa. There is a lot of land there that is not touched by any recognizable "state." You can set up your own voluntary relationships with the cheetahs and baboons and local tribes of pygmies.

    Any takers? Adam? Ian? Remember, it's voluntary!

  18. @ann

    Right after I apply for a state-issued passport (that may not be approved for reasons unclear to any reasonable person: I've observed this phenomenon recently), and go through the state-controlled airport checkpoints. Then I have my freedom!

    I only wish to terminate my relationship to people who attempt to exercise control over me. Is that an unreasonable desire?

    I'm not saying you can't have your government. You can. Just let choose whether I participate. You'll still be able to voluntarily organize into a group and vote on leaders to spend your money and make intrusive laws and pernicious policies that increase the power of the policy makers and enforcers. Only you won't be able to enforce those laws or those rents on me. Deal?

  19. Ryan – you're asking me too many questions. Not gonna spend all day writing to someone who is just going to disagree with it in the end. You know my feelings – I know yours, and if you do take Ann up on her suggestion, you can always jump in a sailboat and head to Pitcairn Island. You don't need a passport – no one is going to stop you – just go, because I call no deal on the opt out plan you think should be offered to you. Or….go ahead and get that passport – a very small price to pay to achieve the freedom you so desire. But you won't. You'll spend the rest of your life right here in the U.S. bitching and whining all the days of your life until you drop dead – dreams of dirt paths and banana tree leaf roofs never achieved.

  20. @Matt

    Thanks for the response. I don't think I'm asking too many questions. I think you'd prefer not to answer them for one reason or another…I don't think it's valid or fair to say you won't respond to my arguments because I will disagree with yours. You don't know that to be true. You may assume I'm rigid and dogmatic, but I doubt you could know that either. And if you think I can't change my mind about anything here, why would I think any differently about you?

    Very well though. I won't pester you with any more troubling questions. That might lead to critical thinking and cause a brain-storm!

    Choosing to stay here doesn't make invalidate any of the arguments I make. You may think it is inconsistent but that has no effect on the logic itself.

    You're being unreasonable Matt. I'll likely be more miserable on some remote island. You may not be aware but Pitcairn Islands are controlled by the British government and appear to have their own statutory law system, so that doesn't seem like a good recommendation anyway.

  21. "WITHHOLDING TAX"

    This should be considered a natural right, as it should be (a right, rather than a necessary automatic reaction) to deny services to people who refuse to pay for them (especially when they have the money.)

    Our tax system is unjust. It forces people to pay for mass murder, to bail out corrupt financial institutions and scams, to keep what's not working the only game in town.

    The problem with making taxes 100% voluntary is people might not pay them. That's also the good thing about making taxes 100% voluntary, given that more of your taxes go to arguably wrong things than arguably beneficial things. Taxes not getting paid should be seen as a smaller problem than taxes being mandatory. Everyone who believes it's better to let the government spend their money for them can still participate. If it's such a great idea, they should find plenty of support for it. Otherwise, it's just the powerful robbing the unrepresented.

    Failing a voluntary system, let's call taxes what they really are: kicking a few million dollars over to poor brown people at home, while spending billions to lock up poor brown people in cages for supplementing their tiny income with sales of contraban, while spending trillions to blow them up in every other country. That's your tax dollars at work. Do I care that they're giving money to the poor? What really bothers me is that magnitudes more is being spent manufacturing global poverty. It's confiscating your table and handing you crumbs. No where is everyone more evenly screwed than by their own tax dollars. You CAN opt out if you're rich– everyone should be able to, temporarily or permanently, at any time, and it should be easy. Until then there will be injustice anywhere and everywhere, and we'll continue to poke middle eastern terrorists with a stick by killing civilian mothers, sons, daughters and parents, and we'll say it's all for the poor.

  22. As for charity, that's when you provide goods or services to people that can't or won't pay for them. It's fine with me, as long as people can refuse the help they don't want.

    Taxes have nothing to do with charity, they are all about force, and just a little charity justifies great and disproportional force, which robs far more than it could ever return to the people it subjugates.

    I'm sure that many thought it was charitable to have slaves, because they provided them with homes and food. And beatings and control.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same. They used to keep them shackled outside, now they keep them shackled indoors, and a percentage are still free men, but we have a lower percentage of free men than we did "under slavery." A quick count of the people in prison ought to prove that.

  23. Jeebus Karist Ryan

    You asked: I’m curious who resides in Keene that doesn’t pay property taxes that finance KPD. Do you know of any, other than those who are homeless?

    I earlier answered already: Unless you are paying property tax in Keene, you’re not paying for KPD. So – I know of no one else – as indicated – your question makes no sense.

    You asked: Why do you think that without coercive central authority, there wouldn’t be bridges or toilets or mail delivery? Do you have any valid reason to believe that?

    Because there is nary a soul on earth who will fund them. Do you think a steel worker is going to make a bridges i beam for free? Or a trucker is going to transport it for free? Or an engineer is going to have it installed for free? You going to plow the snow off the interstate this winter? Here is a letter I want to mail to California…..will you fly/drive it out there for me for 42 cents? Come on – wake up….most of the population you live amongst is not voluntary minded – it's all about the money in case you haven't heard of Wall St. RIght now my street here in Keene has a water main break….water flowing everywhere – and guess who is outside fixing it? The City of Keene.

    You asked: It’s not true that we are the government. Government is the means by which people attempt to legitimize enforcement of their will on others. I don’t do that. Therefor I am not part of the government. Do you attempt to legitimize enforcement of your will onto others? Are you part of the government?

    You're reading way too much into what I said and you know it. What can I say. Government's exist – they aren't going anywhere – especially this one. People who work for the government weren't made in a Terminator factory. They are members of the community – they live, eat and shop with everyone else. Therefore, I disagree with you – that people are the government, and just because you choose to not be a part of it has nothing to do with the fact that the things called human beings who draw a paycheck from the government, aren't in fact people. And no – I am not part of the government – but I wouldn't be opposed to it. Why the hell not?

    My point about Ian: Ian does not support police, because it is theft by taxation. They are illegitimate to him. They are "thugs" and "kidnappers" etc etc. But when he suddenly becomes a victim….I find it amusing that the first thing he shouts is "GOVERNMENT COME HELP ME". If you ever find yourself a victim of a crime, do you call up a thug or a kidnapper to help you? I think not. And don't even pretend to not get my point –

    There. If you don't get a single point I have made on this simpleton report, there isn't anything more I can say to ease the pain.

  24. @Matt

    Are you able to respond without presumptuous, inflammatory statements? Can you just respond rationally instead? Oh I see, I'm a dinengenuous kook and don't see the obvious truth apparent to you. Get off your high horse.

    I didn't see your response to the first question initially. Incidentally, your answer was incorrect. As remarked earlier, everyone pays taxes one way or another, directly or indirectly.

    No, I don't think steel workers, truckers, engineers and snow removers are going to work for free. I assume they'd like to be paid like everyone else.

    In the absence of states, if there were a demand for regional or global trade and other innovations, entrepreneurs would emerge to finance larger-scale, capital intensive projects, anticipating higher profits. Successful entrepreneurs would accumulate resources, merited by their effective satisfaction of consumer desires, and would be most capable of supplying for so-called public goods.

    I understand that the political system is corrupt. That's why I wish to abolish it.

    Yes the City of Keene is resolving the water break, but that doesn't invalidate libertarianism. I contend that water could be supplied better by the market. If you favor monopoly services, it doesn't make sense to criticize the market for failing to supply services it is excluded by law from providing.

    Please don't make statements about me that you cannot know to be true. You've established that government actors are people too. I agree and I think they ought to be treated that way. It appears you didn't respond to my argument though.

    I'm not trying to feign ignorance of your points. I suspected you'd write essentially what you wrote about Ian and the phone beforehand. I've thought about and encountered the kinds of arguments you are making now before, and I disagree with them. While I agree it seems hypocritical of Ian, deeper thought reveals a simple explanation. it's apparent to me that Ian was demonstrating the double-standard, discrimination and abuse. And the officers that day did precisely what I and others expected. They refused to investigate the incident, after insistence that there was video evidence available to prove it, lied to Ian, and overall seemed to lack any concern for a crime that was committed.

  25. You FreePotSmokinTitFlashinKeeneHippieTards crack me up. When are you going to grow up and finally face the fact that without the force of government we would all be dead by now? Without the force of government we would not only not have roads or bridges, but we would not have houses, gardens, or clean air.

    I just can't help myself to inform you guys that you are wrong. I spend 50% of my life here honing my debating skills discussing these facts with you guys because you idiots are so dumb. In fact, I didn't do a lick of work at the DMV today (a real job, you hippies should get one some day) because I had to post here. What you guys do is pointless. Get a life.

  26. Before you try to say I dodged you final question: I realize that cops in this area are generally helpful and beneficial some of the time, and I wouldn't categorize them absolutely as thugs, but thuggery is precisely what they do on a daily basis when they enforce unjust laws on us. In that respect they are thugs, and in the respect that they provide a valued, reciprocal service, they are deserving of respect. They often appear unwilling to honestly speak about their glorious deeds, typically reciting a phrase like "I'm unable/don't care to speak on that issue". I don't believe these cops are all bad. I believe they each have a conscience. That's why it's so troubling. They knowingly hurt people in a regular and systematic way and refuse to speak out or do anything about it, and in that respect they are cowards and oppressors. All the good deeds they do cannot subtract from the harm they inflict on people

  27. Like I said – you would disagree with my view, albeit a little concession on the whole police/respect bit. Look Ryan – like Ian knew the risks when he stood in front of a police car that was about to simply transport Heika to the PD where she would have been released/given a ride home within a half an hour, you too, know the risks if you give a big FU to paying taxes. Whether or not the question remains that heika should have even been taken to the PD is something I understand you don't like. But doing what Ian did, isn't going to change it – but you and the other freestaters can keep fantasizing that it will – and the only thing you'll get for your efforts – is a criminal record.

  28. "There is a lot of land there that is not touched by any recognizable 'state.'"

    You could say the same thing about the Moon, but even that's got a fucking flag in it. This idea that there's a place "untouched by the state" is laughable, if it's capable of supporting human life or even if it has natural resources, it's probably being touched by A state, even if it's a FOREIGN state.

    Just in case, a short list of places that REALLY ARE in complete anarchy (no kings, no puppet dictators, no occupation by foreign interests) would be appreciated.

    Antarctica sounds like a possibility, but you'd probably have to import your food from some place that controls it with police.

    Places that have resources tend to be controlled by state armies. The Congo is controlled by monopolies, but I'm against all monopolies, and the state just seems to be the largest of the monopolies I'm against.

    • Antarctica sounds like a possibility, but you’d probably have to import your food from some place that controls it with police.

      The United States Marshals Service has two special deputy marshals in Antarctica who enforce US law there.

      http://www.usmarshals.gov/history/antarctica/inde

      You just can't get away from the state… even there.

  29. “GOVERNMENT COME HELP ME”

    Is a perfectly reasonable thing to say to someone that has a monopoly on something. If Bechtel controlled all the water on earth and in the sky, I would take the water that fell from the sky into my basin. And if Bechtel tried to prosecute me for it, I would tell them to have mercy, even if I had no belief they would, and even if they have no right in my opinion to exist. BECAUSE THEY CONTROL EVERYTHING. Not because they should.

  30. "You just can’t get away from the state… even there."

    Even though that's my entire point, and I wasn't planning to move there, I'm disappointed nonetheless. I think these alleged free non-states exist only in mythology, but the state has plenty of use for mythology– it's probably the ONLY thing that can justify it.

  31. Government come help me…..Government Fuck You. Pick a side. SOTBS – maybe you should charter a private boat and try to find Atlantis.

  32. "Pick a side."

    Oh, that's your arbitrary black-and-white bullshit that was already addressed. Maybe you should charter a boat and try to find a clue.

  33. Well, I know one place my boat won't go for that – and that's your house. Black and white bullshit……yep – about as I expected. You can't have it both ways. You can't expect to shit on certain people all the time and then expect they are going to be tripping over themselves to help you. Actually – let me rephrase….you can expect it, but it isn't going to come true. Ask Ian how it has worked for him.

  34. Sounds like someone is advising, broaching, conjecturing, exhorting, posing, proponing, propounding, steering, thorizing, touting, suggesting, or hinting at violence acts.

  35. Well, El, sounds like someone is advising, broaching, conjecturing, exhorting, posing, proponing, propounding, steering, thorizing, touting, suggesting, or hinting at violence.

  36. There are place on earth which are currently stateless. If you don't like paying ridiculously high property taxes here in NH, well, Somalia is waiting. Or a big boat and international waters.

    Being able to leave oppression does not justify oppression. Chattel slaves in colonial Brazil could buy their freedom and become property owners and even slave owners themselves afterwards. Notice how that did not justify slavery.

    And like I posted up above: a "stateless"-capitalist society wouldn't be stateless at all but would simply be a decentralized network of mini-states where individuals or individual families would hire rent-a-cops to have a violent monopoly over their private property. Hell, private property in itself is a violent monopoly (like I've said a bajillion times, there's a reason why P.J. Proudhon attacked private property before he attacked the state).

    • Or a big boat and international waters.

      Under international maritime law, a boat needs to be flagged. Unless the boat is in territorial waters of a nation, only the nation to which the boat is flagged may stop and board it. A nation may also allow another nations maritime agents (typically done by requests through the State Department) to board a vessel flying its flag.

      If a vessel is un-flagged, it is open game for every state to board as it basically is a pirate ship.

      The whole notion of international waters being stateless is wholly false. Unless, of course, you can get your vessel flagged by a nation-state that refuses every request by other states to board.

  37. "Well, El, sounds like someone is advising, broaching, conjecturing, exhorting, posing, proponing, propounding, steering, thorizing, touting, suggesting, or hinting…"

    It does. I won't demand an explanation, but I am as curious about this post as you are.

  38. Of course you won't SOTBS, because you aren't Sick Of Brad's Shit.

    • Of course you won’t SOTBS, because you aren’t Sick Of Brad’s Shit.

      David's definition of "shit": Being reminded how his positions are incompatible and how he behaves immaturely for a man of his (alleged) age.

      brad…you’re totally a cop.

      Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! ;)

  39. With people trying really hard to censor me, I'm not going to try very hard to get anyone censored, David. Frankly I find your posts more offensive than El's, but I DON'T deny that they appear less in violation of the rules than El's. Also, I don't mind if my own posts were more offensive than yours. I was aiming for them to be.

    Since I haven't called for anyone else's posts to be deleted, I don't know why I would turn around and ask for El's to. I was merely admitting that I think I agree with you on something. Who knew you'd decide to turn that into a personal attack? You must be getting bored with david-keene then… no complaints about that.

    • El's post is flagrantly in violation of the rules. I've deleted it 4 times today and it won't stay deleted for some reason. I've had this problem before when I've tried to delete things from my BlackBerry. It has something to do with the WordPress java interface not liking the webkit browser interface BlackBerry has.

      El, please don't advocate violence here. David advocates enough of it for all of us combined.

      He just doesn't advocate the type of violence Ian doesn't allow here…. else his posts would also be removed.

      ^^^^^^^^^^———————————————– that sentence should light holy_canole's fuse.

      Oh… and David… could you please answer my question that you avoided?

      Tell me, David: what better place than the ONE state that has such a Constitution is there for americans who wish to fight for more freedom?

  40. And no, I haven't seen any shit from Brad to be sick of.

  41. If that's the case, then what's the deal with "seasteading"? Couldn't you just park your boat on the shores of Somalia and use your gold and silver to buy off potential raiders?

    • If that’s the case, then what’s the deal with “seasteading”? Couldn’t you just park your boat on the shores of Somalia and use your gold and silver to buy off potential raiders?

      It is the case insofar as it pertains to boats. There may actually be an admiralty law distinction for a platform vs. a vessel that I am unaware of.

      I suppose one could do what you suggest. I'd have to ask what would stop raiders from just taking all of your gold and silver at once?

  42. I would ask what would prevent your wage slaves from taking over your factory in a stateless society where private property contracts don't exist.

    Also, did you read my comment at the very top (I'm "Julia Riber Pitt" by the way)? A stateless-capitalist and/or "voluntaryist" society would be far more policed than the society we have now, simply because the high demand for private police by the rich, property-owning class would give an incentive for more people to become police, as they know that a high demand would equal higher wages for them.

    • Also, did you read my comment at the very top (I’m “Julia Riber Pitt” by the way)?

      This is the second time you've pointed out who you are. Does your being "Julia Riber Pitt" imply some sort of status around here that I am unaware of?

      Regarding your comment: are you implying that people of a voluntaryist mindset should move to Somalia? People argue that all the time around here and I have a simple answer for it. Somalia is a failed society. You cannot evolve Somalia into a voluntaryist mecca because it is over-run with people who wish to have the power of "the state." I believe a society such as ours could evolve past the need for initiated violence… but I do not believe it could happen over in Somalia.

      Also, did you read my comment at the very top (I’m “Julia Riber Pitt” by the way)? A stateless-capitalist and/or “voluntaryist” society would be far more policed than the society we have now, simply because the high demand for private police by the rich, property-owning class would give an incentive for more people to become police, as they know that a high demand would equal higher wages for them.

      The big difference between having government police and private police is that there would be no veil of legitimacy for private police who violate the NAP. If a private police officer were to attack you on your own property, you'd be morally, ethically, and diplomatically justified in defending yourself.

      I think the best way to sum up what voluntaryists want is this: I want a world where all people have the right to defend themselves against the violence and aggression of others. You don't?

  43. Gladly, as soon as you answer the several I asked of you. Like when you fixated on my use of the word 'place'.

    Go ahead, there are several unanswered questions of mine. I'll be glad to answer yours when you stop avoiding mine.

    • Try living in one for a while before you start telling those who are already there how to live their lives and how their government should function.

      Do you think I live on a boat in a harbor somewhere, having absolutely no contact with people?

      Once again, your logic is out near Pluto. You think that telling people that they shouldn't tell people how to live their lives is in fact telling people how they should live their lives. Don't you comprehend the ridiculousness of that?

      Yes, people ARE telling people how they think the government should function. What is wrong with that when the government itself doesn't follow its own Constitution? Furthermore, for a guy so upset about people telling others how they should live, why are you not supporting people who want the government to function in a manner so that it doesn't tell people how they should live their lives?

      This can just go round and round with you.

  44. Should be enough workable stuff by Rob Menard or 1215.org to win your battles if you are gutsy and integrous enough to strongly adopt their ways.

    Great stuff there @ 1215.org – (Bill Thornton), and Thinkfree.ca (bursting bubbles & magnificent deception, Rob Menard)

    TC & GL

  45. Thanks, "Jim"…could we have some links, please…???…..~tKoK…

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