I Forgive You, Mikaela.

November 18, 2008 by Ian
Filed under: Announcement, Hypocrisy, Issues, News, Personal Freedom, Response, Update

Mikaela Dear Mikaela,

I forgive you. You probably never realized, perhaps until now, that government hurts people. I do not know you, but from listening to what you’ve said on the radio and reading about you on the Internet, I imagine that like many people, you believe that government is a handy tool you can use to make life better for people. While your intentions may be pure, the method is not. Government is force. Were you oblivious to that fact? After all, you are one of the people calling themselves part of the “City of Keene”, so whether you knew or not, that’s the tool you advocate. I’m guessing you didn’t know, as you did say on 08/09/08′s “Talkback”:

“I wouldn’t advise aggressing against anybody.”

I really appreciated when you said that! I think people working together voluntarily is a great thing. However, threatening people with violence is not a nice way to build a community with mutual respect. Based on your statement on Talkback, I thought you understood that. Imagine my surprise when I discovered it was you who snitched me out to the “code enforcers” over my tenants’ couch. You said you wouldn’t advise aggressing against your neighbor, then the very same week you initiated aggression against me!

I don’t know whether you realized that what you did was aggression (It is, in the same way that hiring a hitman makes you responsible for the hit, even though you didn’t actually pull the trigger.), but either way I forgive you. Additionally, you needn’t be afraid of me snitching you out for something about your property that I don’t like, as I don’t believe your property is any of my business. Perhaps fear of retaliation was why you were afraid to come and meet me like a good neighbor would have instead of running to the “code enforcers” and having them threaten me into complying with your “city” ordinances.

Did you realize at any point that men with guns would actually throw me into a prison cell over this? That’s exactly what happened, because force is the only tool government has at its disposal. Of course the irony of the entire situation is that it would only cost a few bucks to take the couch out to the dump, but instead your friends in the “City of Keene” were willing to spend thousands of taxpayer dollars to lock me in a cage for several months over this issue! How does that make any sense?

To answer my own question, the reason they were willing to hurt me and my family (my wonderful companion Julia was made quite ill by my absence, and couldn’t work) is because it’s not about the couch, but about being obedient to the arbitrary dictates of the people calling themselves the government.

So, you were either ignorant about the coercive nature of the agency that employs you, or you’re completely aware of government’s coercive nature and you embrace it. I will presume the former, because I like to believe that people are generally good, and I believe that you are probably a very good person, just misled. I can relate as I was also ignorant to the violence of the system at one time. Then I discovered the ideas of liberty and allowing others to be free.

I forgive you for hurting me and my loved ones, Mikaela. You have no obligation to do so, but an apology from you would sure go a long way to healing the wounds and proving to the world (I imagine you’ve gotten a few emails and phone calls from those watching this situation.) that you understand that what you did was wrong.

I also hope to hear that you have embraced the idea of honoring your neighbors’ choices, even if you disagree with them. Don’t hesitate to get in touch. I don’t bite!

Your peaceful, down-the-street neighbor,
Ian Freeman

Kit

"Away put your weapon, I mean you no harm" -Yoda

In the current system we still have means to defend ourselves. You helped me make a point by saying that the majority of the “government” is corrupt. If you cant find good people to be our servants now, what changes the hearts of people in a liberty based society? If it is going to be totally different people that you in particular a comfortable with, are they moving to populate the positions of government now?

Defend ourselves? Ah, you must mean calling the police when your home is being broken into and hoping they show up eventually. If you shoot the intruder, after all, your're probably going to jail. And that's with a government approved weapon, no less.

The way you automatically assume people will have or be "servants" speaks magnitudes about how you see others. Here's something you can try at home: Whatever it is, do it yourself instead of forcing someone else.

As far as populating government offices, nobody would spend millions of dollars campaigning to get a $120,000 a yeas job unless their bread was getting buttered elsewhere.

This nation got lost along the way. We were given a republic , we just could not keep it and devolved into a tryrannically run democracy.

I won't argue that. The experiment, however well-intentioned, has failed disastrously. Assuming there even was a magic reset button, would you want to spend the next 200 years watching it fail again?

As for the question about the water, wastewater and storm water systems I am wondering what would happen to the existing infrastructure when the “liberty based society” reach critical mass? Voluntary payments right? I dont think the example about a vacant piece of land adresses my concern. If not enough people volunteer to maintain the currently buried water and sewer pipes and they fail, how is that good for protecting my liberty and freedom?

Well, for one, no one would make you pay for some water and sewage system you weren't using. Your odds of being without those services are directly proportionate to the odds of you renting land that doesn't supply them. I can't give you an answer that will satisfy your desire to use force on people. Do you really think people would NOT want these services? If it's a legitimate concern and not just trolling, I suggest directing your question towards someone in the real estate development field. If you think it's okay to just take money from people for services they may not even use, I could you an invoice for a computer repair I just gave someone else.
geofalon007

Kit,

I am no troll and I am doing what I think is best to shape the world I live in.

The "movement" has said it is a bad world becasue government uses force to arbitrarily subject people to its will.

I buy into the concept of liberty and freedom. I buy into the concept of doing away with bad government actors.

When I ask how simple services will be provided in a liberty based society thebest you can do is tell me to ask a real estate developer?

If you can't tell me how to provide for basic sanitary services in a liberty based society how would a real estate developer be able to tell me?

I know how they are brought into existance and maintained in this current "government by force scenario", (I will remind you I am one of those evil servants that hears developers and builders proposals that need permission from government by way or a zoning variance and special permits).

In todays "government by force world" the developer gets his plans approved by the government. He gets to hook up to the municipal water and sewer pipes after paying the appropriate fees . The property owner then gets bills for the water and sewer service based on water consumption at a rate set by the municipality to maintain the infrastructure. If the owner does not pay the bill his property is liened and then sold to satify the lien.

The "liberty based society " people prevail and the government by force is overthrown by reason.

My existing house and the people living there still depend on the infrastructure to live in the house since the land is not big enough to support a well or a septic system ( you see the government by force help create habitable dwellings that could not have been brought into existance without someone creating the infrastrucure).

Is someone now operating the water treatment and sewer treatment plants for profit? Did the treatment plants get shut down becasue no one was forced to pay the bills becasue force has been over come by reason?

Will I have to buy large tanks that need to be filled with water and large tanks that will be pumped regularly becasue no one knows how to fund the existing infrastructure?

If the "movement" really hopes to bring about a sea change in peoples hearts and minds regarding the "failed government by force" shouldn't it have a clear vision of what type of system will replace it.

If the "movement" cannot explain in detail how large public infrastrucure the urbanized areas of our nation will remain in operation to protect life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, I suggest to you and the readers that it will never come to pass.

Making reference to me being a troll or telling me I should go ask a real estate developer doesn't address the issue except to get it off of your specific plate.
Zeus

When I ask how simple services will be provided in a liberty based society thebest you can do is tell me to ask a real estate developer?

If you can’t tell me how to provide for basic sanitary services in a liberty based society how would a real estate developer be able to tell me?

Your first problem in comprehending what a free society would be like is your assumption that it will function drastically different than what we have now. It isn't the function so much that will be different (save for the absence of being forced to do things you don't want to do or else) but rather the benefits. In a free society, you will only pay for what you consume and explicitly contract to use. So long as you don't infringe upon the rights of others, you are essentially left to your devices. Should you come into conflict with others, it is the victims of your actions that you would pay restitution to rather than The State.

Your second problem in comprehending a free society is that by your very questions regarding the finer details regarding how things will operate, it's obvious that you seek the order and safety of central one-size-fits-all central planning. I say this because you are asking about the smallest details on how a free society would operate as if they'd all work the same. The very fact that people will be free to choose for themselves what's best means that there will be no single one-size-fits-all method of operating a free society. Some will choose methods that work better than others. Some will choose worse. The fundamental difference between that and what we have now is that you don't have that option to choose. You're stuck with the local government and it's diktats or else.

Now, if you really want to live in some kind of commune where someone tells you what to do and takes a portion of what you earn, you could still do that in a free society: Just go get a bunch of neighbors together, form an association and elect a neighborhood dictator, czar or grand poobah to rule over the rest of you and who will deal with water treatment plants and sewage for you and your fellow members. So long as you don't force others to join your group, you should get along with everyone else just fine.
geofalon007

Zeus says:

Your first problem in comprehending what a free society would be like is your assumption that it will function drastically different than what we have now. It isn’t the function so much that will be different (save for the absence of being forced to do things you don’t want to do or else) but rather the benefits. In a free society, you will only pay for what you consume and explicitly contract to use. So long as you don’t infringe upon the rights of others, you are essentially left to your devices. Should you come into conflict with others, it is the victims of your actions that you would pay restitution to rather than The State.

I ask:

The public infrastructure is a great benefit to society that has enabled the people to use the land in a manner that creates a situation that enabled people to reap financial benefits from smaller parcels of property . In my example , if you do not use the water that flows from the public water system and dump waste into the public sewer system you do not pay for it directly.

If there is not a government that forces people to make tax payments to maintain this infrastructure andthere are not enough volunteers to pay for this system, it will fail.

You seem to ignore the fundimental reasons why such a system was created in the first place and do not want to address how such a system will be maintained in a liberty based society.

The cities of modern America would not have come into existance with out a "central way" to deal with water, waster water and stormwater management across actificial boundaries such as property lines and lines that deliniate cities and towns.

The "movement" says they demand that private property rights be respected and that an individual should be able to do no harm to other it their use of their property and should be free of a bureaucrat forcing them do do something.

The fact that "government" created an infrastrucure that allows you to benefit from a property in such a manner that would not be possible without the benefit of a water, wastewater and strom water management system seems to be lost in this discussion.

The soil shape and topography of land dictates how it is able to perculate waste from the houses plumbing and if there is water in the earth with the lot lines and itf there is enough room to bury trash.

People came up with the idea to centralize thes services hundreds of years ago to promote the general health safety and welfare of a larger area than just someones private property.

What happens to these systems when you no longer have a government to force collection of payments in the form of service fees and taxes to maintain them?

This is the answer Zeus gives:

Now, if you really want to live in some kind of commune where someone tells you what to do and takes a portion of what you earn, you could still do that in a free society: Just go get a bunch of neighbors together, form an association and elect a neighborhood dictator, czar or grand poobah to rule over the rest of you and who will deal with water treatment plants and sewage for you and your fellow members. So long as you don’t force others to join your group, you should get along with everyone else just fine.

Zeus,

I think the "movement" does not know how to answer the question of how to deal with issues that cross "private property boundaries". The health and safety issues solved by a central water, sewer and stormwater management system take a back seat to "don't tread on me".

Yet the "don't tread on me crowd" will not acknowledge how such systems benefit everyone. They seems to be selfish as say I did not conset and I will not be forced to concent and I don't have true ownership of the property if I am force to pay for such things and the same time taking the benefit.

If you or any other freestater believes that they could remove themselves from the grid and still maintain a property fit for human habitation, is there an example of how this would work.

Did someone cut the pipes at their private property line ansd provide an alternate means of potable water and wastewater disposal. Did they also cut the electric and gas lines? what about the cable? All of these systems are tied to the governments force andif you do not conset to the governments force you should not benefit from it either. Do you rely on the fire department? what about the public road? will you stop using this means of travel? how will you exit your private property to get groceries if you can not longer benefit from the "public infrastructure?
Zeus

If there is not a government that forces people to make tax payments to maintain this infrastructure andthere are not enough volunteers to pay for this system, it will fail.

Exactly. The possibility of failure is the price paid for free will. It also provides you an incentive to work with others who are also obsessed with water and sewage to come up with a plan that is workable without government force.

You seem to ignore the fundimental reasons why such a system was created in the first place and do not want to address how such a system will be maintained in a liberty based society.

It is irrelevant how they will maintained. Either they will or they won't. If you can't figure out how to come up with a plan that doesn't involve robbing your neighbors at gunpoint then maybe you should live out in the boonies and dig a well?

What happens to these systems when you no longer have a government to force collection of payments in the form of service fees and taxes to maintain them?

If these systems can't adapt to being voluntary services, they will fail. Me? I'll just move into a neighborhood that includes all these services for a monthly fee and spend my time dealing with more important matters.

Yet the "don't tread on me crowd" will not acknowledge how such systems benefit everyone. They seems to be selfish as say I did not conset and I will not be forced to concent and I don't have true ownership of the property if I am force to pay for such things and the same time taking the benefit.

You seem to be under the delusion that we all just want to be a bunch of jackasses once we're free to choose. While there will be the occasional jackass miser, most of us just want to go about our lives without having the government pick our pockets and obligate us to things we disagree with.

If government is handling the water and sewage now by force, there is no reason not to believe some enterprising capitalist or two in search of profits can't do it without force. After all, I go to Best Buy or Target to purchase certain products but nobody from those companies comes over to my house, tells me I have to buy from them, or throws me in a cage if I refuse. I buy from them because it's convenient and reasonably priced. Not because someone sticks a gun to my head and says "pay up 'cause we're the only game in town.".
Alex Libman

All's well that ends well.