The Real Activist Divides

August 8, 2010 by Ian
Filed under: Laugh at the Aggressors, Living Free, Response, Your Evolution

In the online world, there has been much discussion of a “schism” between the activists. The original perception was that the divide was between activists favoring civil disobedience and noncooperation vs in-the-system political activists. In real life, the so-called schism was barely visible. Most people in the liberty movement are friendly and helpful toward one another, and there is no firm dividing line in activist approaches. Many choose differing levels of those two categories of activism and also plenty of other things one can do for liberty such as outreach, education, media creation, internet work, software programming, and more. Sure, there are a few people who are intolerant of certain activist approaches, but that will always be the case with a spectrum of interest. The politicos who are generally intolerant toward those doing civil disobedience and noncooperation are known for their very public complaining about “poisoning the well”.

I finally understand what they mean.

These political activists frequently chastise (as do the bureaucrats and politicians) civdis/noncoops for not “working within the system”. Today I had a conversation on facebook that was quite enlightening. I’d like to share that here. Keep in mind as you read that Seth and I get along fine in the real world, but here we are clearly at loggerheads. He will appear in bold and I will add commentary between the block quotes:

Ian: Apparently working in the system means doing everything the government people demand of you. If they put up a hoop and you don’t jump through it, you’re poisoning the well!

Seth Cohn: Ian, this is quite disingenuous. You decided to hold a ‘drinking game’ at the meeting. You posted openly about it, and then get upset when they stop you from doing it in the first place. Stop being petulantly obtuse that somehow you ‘tried to get involved in the system’, it’s just not true.

Ian: Seth – we handed out fliers to all the councilors and media in advance alerting them that they could repeal the ordinance and citing the ordinances. We WERE working in the system. You just don’t like the method we used to get people excited about going to a BORING city council meeting.

FACT: At the start of that meeting, there were 15 people in the audience section of the council chamber. Eight liberty activists and seven others, at least two of which were city employees I recognized. Put another way, after years of mostly never attending city council meetings, the city council drinking game brought out more liberty lovers than anything I can recall from the past. It’s likely that the police crackdown on people with brown bottles will bring even more people to the next meeting, but only time will tell. This approach has clearly gotten people involved in-the-system, but the complaining political activists are still not happy. Why? Read on.

Seth Cohn: Ian, one of the very first things I learned here in NH politics, at the Don Gorman school of politics (and remember, YOU chose to work in the system, so you have to play by the rules of the system, or else you aren’t really working in the s…ystem, no matter what you want to pretend), is that decorum is what makes the entire thing work. If you don’t show the respect for the system, it grinds to a halt. If you don’t show respect for your opposition, despite that they are wrong on this issue, because they might be allies on the next issue, it grinds to a halt. If you don’t show proper decorum, dressing appropriately, using correct titles, etc, it grinds to a halt. Guess what: it ground to a halt, because you refused to respect the system you claimed to want to work within.

Make up your freak(stater)ing mind: if you are going to try working within the system, do it, or don’t do it, but don’t claim to be doing it when you refuse to respect it.

See, some politician told Seth how it is, so that must be how it’s done! Even if you understand that government is nothing but men and women using violence and threats to feed off of peaceful people, or the violent monopoly, you should pipe down, put on a suit, and RESPECT those criminals. Wouldn’t want such *important* people to think poorly of you, now would you?

Clearly, a major divide is between those who pander to the system (unless they aren’t pandering and actually like it, in which case, they are probably power-seekers) and those who laugh at the system. It’s those who take the government people and their “system” seriously vs those who don’t.

Ian: You’re right. I don’t respect their system. Their system is institutionalized violence. So now it’s not “use the system”, it’s “use and RESPECT the system”? FUCK THAT.

I’m a quaker. I don’t use “titles”. They are men and women and their shit stinks too. I’ll respect them as individuals who have the potential to do the right thing and change, but never their precious system.

Seth Cohn: Then despite all of your protests to the contrary, NO, you are not ‘working within the system’ and I will continue to call you a liar if you continue to claim you are. Rule #1 of working in the system is accepting the inherent rules of the system, like decorum. If you insist on playing basketball when everyone else is playing baseball, you can and will be thrown off the playing field when you dribble. And complaining that you were playing too is nonsense.

Ian: Seth, I’m not playing by your rules (or Don’s, rather) for the system. It’s working within the system when you test and exceed its limits.

You can call me whatever makes you feel good!

People get respect from me by default just for being fellow human beings and more respect they earn. They will lose my respect for aggressing against or supporting aggression against others. I have some respect for a number of bureaucrats on a personal level, those I have gotten to know. However, I cannot respect a system (which is just a set of ideas and their adherents) that doesn’t respect peaceful humans. Perhaps someday the political activists putting up some front of “decor” will see that the laughter is a powerful tool for dismantling the idea of “the state”. If the government people aren’t taken seriously, it is a major hit to their legitimacy – something they grasp dearly to maintain as they only rule by threats, force, and brainwashing. Naturally, they want to obscure that coercion as much as possible, else people start to catch on and get fed up with it all.

Seth Cohn: Since you insist on redefining things, it’s not possible to have a meaningful discussion.
The rules aren’t mine, or Don’s, they are what make up the system itself. If you want to pretend otherwise, it’s your neck at risk. They have guns. …As you are so fond of pointing out.

Ian: I’d be a failure without risk.

Another divide here. Risk-takers vs safety-seekers. I don’t blame Seth or anyone else for being afraid. Fear is something I think we all deal with. They ARE scary. They can take your home and put you in a cage. Jail isn’t a great place to be, but disobedience and noncooperation are extra powerful BECAUSE they are risky. Once you accept the idea of being caged, there’s little they can do to you in your mind. Once others come together who feel the same way, who are willing to risk, amazing things become possible. Witness the mass arrests and buzz surrounding the Keene movement. The political establishment in Keene is flailing desperately: Hate in the newspaper comments, embarrassing arrests, loads of court trials coming up, and more new movers arriving all the time!

The critics in the liberty movement want to believe the vitriolic (and conveniently anonymous) comments on the Keene Sentinel stories are some indicator of what “the community” thinks of liberty activists in Keene. Sorry, there’s just no meaningful evidence to support their assertions. Seems to me that Keene is like most other places in that lots of people do whatever they can to avoid the government and it’s awful processes. Want proof? As I said, the city council meeting was barren of attendees excluding some city bureaucrats and their family members. Regular people are working or enjoying their time off rather than torture themselves by attending one of the government people’s horribly dull meetings. People go along to get along, pay the gang, and do their best to ignore the government people. Many wish they were left alone, but the government people just keep coming back for more taxes and fines and regulations. Eventually, the person or someone they love is attacked by the government parasites and the victims of the sociopaths are more likely to find and even seek out liberty activists. Eventually, they’ll be even more likely to find us as court outreach expands in Keene.

Again, more activists makes all kinds of projects possible. So, if you’ve read this far, when are you moving to Keene? If you are already here, come out of the closet and get involved. If you are a supporter of the violent monopoly, seek help or maybe it’s time to consider moving somewhere where the violent monopoly you love so much actually has a future. NH’s monopoly days are numbered.

http://nhcaptv.com Denis Goddard

I think Denis thinks it should be respected because he would like to tame the corrupt system, put a leash on it, and try to reel it in.

No, I think it should be respected because that is the fastest and most effective way to change things.

Actions have consequences. What we do in each moment, creates the world we live in the next moment.

I believe strongly the antics of the Free Keene crowd will inevitably result in LESS freedom, not more.

(THREAD-HIJACK)

By the way, Brad, congrats on your transition towards Jainism. I have a great deal of respect for the Jains' respect for all life. Are you adopting a Jain diet?
Bradley Jardis

By the way, Brad, congrats on your transition towards Jainism. I have a great deal of respect for the Jains’ respect for all life. Are you adopting a Jain diet?

HIJACK-continued:

Hey, thanks!

I am slowly transitioning to a Jain-like diet. I'm a lot more cautious and thoughtful of what I'm eating and what the repercussions are.

The world would be a much better place if the world all lived by the tenants of Jainism. It is too bad that this will never be a reality.
thinkliberty

Dennis,

Do you have any evidence that "it's the fastest and most effective way to change things?"

Or is it just an unproven theory of yours?
http://nhcaptv.com Denis Goddard

Do you have any evidence that “it’s the fastest and most effective way to change things?”

In the 5 years I've been in NH, it's far and away the largest source of change I've seen. The list is long. NH now has a constitutional amendment prohibiting eminent domain for private purposes (eg, Keelo). NH has no illegal knives. NH won't participate in Real-ID. The State of NH is forbidden to set up automated license-plate scanners like they do in other states. There's a lot more.
MaineShark

And you can prove that those resulted from the political process?

Not , for example, the fact that, if Real-ID went forward in NH, there would be massive non-compliance? Or the fact that there was already massive non-compliance with the silly knife laws?

Maybe you should learn something about NH, before telling us what we would and would not have done, without your benevolent help. Real help, we can use. Condescending nonsense about how lucky we are to have you, ain't going to win hearts and minds, here.
Paul

Denis didn't say we're lucky to have him, but I'll say it.

Personally, I support all kinds of liberty activism — thoughtful, orderly civil disobedience, agorism, and political activism. I don't think we're going to get there using one method alone.

I think CD should be chosen to illustrate the absurdity/immorality of a bad law in a way average folks can understand. So, it shouldn't alienate people — but it also doesn't have to make all the politicians happy.

We don't have to convince politicians, we have to convince average people — and the politicians will follow.
Bradley Jardis

Denis didn't say we're lucky to have him, but I'll say it.

I wholeheartedly agree. I think Denis is a phenomenal activist.

I just think Ian and Sam are too
Name (required)

Oh Bradley,

So I call you out for being a self agrandizing asshole, you make a false moral equivalency and I end up being a Jim crow racist?

I like how you try to sound like Ghandi while your doing it. Your inadequacy shines through Im afraid..Intellectual bandruptcy is a sad thing Bradley. I wonder how actual black people who suffered during the first half of the last century would appreciate being compared to spoiled white children stomping their feet because they cant drink in public and play with some poor misguided girls boobies..Why dont you ask some of FKs black members how life was like for their grandparents…oh wait a second…

Main Shark,

That you dont understand the demanding hours and commitment it takes to be a successful self employed buisiness person sadly speaks volumes about who you are and where you are in life. Any one who thinks self employment equals more free time is a born loser. Work more for less??? You work more for more. Its about money Jackass…You see in the market place, the guy who does a better job or has a superior product dominates market share. The market demands competition, that takes lots of time and energy..The lazy complaining asshole eats shit and fails..probably because he thinks he isnt free enough
thinkliberty

Denis,

Your evidence appears to be conformation bias. Do you have any additional evidence? Any real proof?
Bradley Jardis

So I call you out for being a self agrandizing asshole, you make a false moral equivalency and I end up being a Jim crow racist?

Your opinion may be that I'm a self aggrandizing (you spelled it wrong) asshole… but it is a fact I have the courage to use my real name as I post here.

I don't accuse you of being a Jim Crow racist, I accuse you of supporting the violent state that has historically used its violence to hurt peaceful people… like during the years of Jim Crow laws. The concept and method of what happened during Jim Crow is the same damn thing that happens now: violence is used against peaceful people to solve problems.

Question for you sir/mam/person who is too scared to use their real name in public on a debate of public policy: Is initiating violence an acceptable solution to solving peaceful problems?
Gabe

OFF-TOPIC ALERT!

Paul – I thought of our previous conversation about privatization of roads when I was reading this, and wanted to pass it on: http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/06/…
Paul

Wow, really cool story Gabe, thanks for linking to that.

I for one hope the system isn't centralized. With a centralized system, all you need is one failure, one incompetent person, or one hacker, and we're talking mass death and mayhem.

Better to have cars independent — although I can see that it might be a good idea for them to be able to talk to each other.
Gabe

Totally agree. They should all speak the same language, but no need to all talk to some central server.
MaineShark

Anonymous, it's called efficiency. Henry Ford gained market share by producing a product with less labor cost than the competition.

If you're working more for less, or even more for more, you might as well just work for someone else (you can even "work more for more," there – it's called "overtime" or a "second job").

If you can't gain any real benefit for the hassle of running a business, why bother?
http://www.nolanchart.com/author677.html Chaz Munro

Seth Cohn, sadly doesn't get it. he goes on in the text about the system "grinding to a halt". Well isn't that the point?
Seth Cohn

Chaz, you don't get it. I clarified my meaning in the discussion on the FK forum: 'grinding to a halt' refers to the process 'in the system', ie the legislative change you wish to see happen. Not the entire 'system'.

It was quite wonderful seeing how quickly after Ian and Sam's decorum-less 'in the system' activism, the folks on the other side (the ones with the actual power to change the ordinance) not only ground the process to a halt and proclaimed not even on a bet would they introduce such a change now, but that (believe it or not) they'd been potentially considering it. Even if it's only after the fact posturing, it's a perfect example of why Ian's approach is a disaster if you want to 'work in the system': you become the 'bad' guy and the reason nothing will change – and your opponents become the moral high ground and get to leave things as they are for the win.
MaineShark

Yeah, folks who behave like pathetic little children ("you were mean to me, so I'm going to show you by hurting everyone!") really have the moral high ground…
Paul

Seth, we don't need to make the Cynthias of the world love freedom and want small government. It won't happen.

We do need to appeal to average folks. What we need to do is illustrate, for average folks, the immorality/absurdity of particular laws, so that the people themselves will demand change.

That's when the politicians will have to respond. If you think you can get big time statists to love freedom by kissing up to them, you're fooling yourself.

Now, that doesn't mean I agree with all of the Keene activism that's taken place. Far from it — but the goal needs to be to educate/motivate normal people — not win the favor of politicians.
Seth Cohn

You really need to learn the difference between kissing up and decorum.

It's quite sad how clueless the Keene activists are on making real change happen.

So far, I can count the entire sum of changes they have made in Keene: 0.

Name me ONE thing successfully changed so far? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Chase Banks

To respect "decorum" is to legitimize and perpetuate it.
Name (required)

Bradley,

You took a page from your own life, superimposed it over a 60s back drop(making yourself the hero of course) and then suggested because I think you're a bloviated attention whore, I would some how be against the civil rights movement, as if some how you personify it. My point is that it is stupid and insensitive to conflate yourself with civil rights leaders of consequence who have actually made meaningful sacrifices.

Im sorry I misspelled aggrandizing i was writing during my lunchbreak.. looks like you've had a pretty long lunch break today,

My anonymity has been explained before but I will reitterate for you.

FK members have on multiple occassions posted peoples personal information on the net..When someone doesn't like someone else they like to post up a persons data so every loser stewing about their lost freedom in moms basement can endlessly bother them…no thanks..Its enough I have to deal with the local freetards

Your choice to be an outspoken quazi public figure doesn't make you brave Bradley or make your convictions any truer , it merely enforces what my opinion of you is. You like the attention, you were an "unstable" cop so now your a super "activist" Its the elevated self importance that probably motivated you to choose both of those roles for yourself..Bradleys special

oh and dont ask framed questions…peacfull problems? Like others here have said passive aggression is still aggression…Public opinion of FK is only getting worse..Ian and co are actually becoming a political catlyst for more rule making…the barometer for success is so convoluted Ian claims a victory if the sun rises in the east..

Main Shark

I dont really need a lecture on Fords production inovations or his influence on the fabric of our society. I find it childish that you assume that someone who works hard at what they do and is competitive is being inefficient. I wouldn't run my own show if I didn't enjoy what I do and was banking .Do you think Henry Ford tricked out his production, cut costs, put the working class in cars and then decided to say fuck it Ill get high for the rest of the afternoon? Your assumptions reveal somone who has either never really been out in the world or somone who did and screwed the pooch…People dont go into buisiness to work less. They enjoy the challenge, they hopefully like what they are doing and they are generally competitive..people who put that together make money….People who smoke pot and drink everyday well….dont…..
MaineShark

Yeah, Henry Ford never enjoyed his wealth. He just generated it for the heck of it, and worked more and more hours.

Because, you know, working more and more hours and doing nothing else, is so much fun!

I work hard so that I can afford the things I like, and spend time with my family. Work is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. I earn more and work fewer hours than I did when I was employed by others. If not, why wouldn't I just work for others?

The point of being challenged is to rise to the occasion and succeed, not to pathetically fail. If you're working more, and not getting a dramatic return on that, you failed the challenge, and would be better off just taking a position elsewhere. Someone who thinks that working inefficiently is good, should have no trouble finding a job at Walmart or the like…
Bradley Jardis

Bradley,

You took a page from your own life, superimposed it over a 60s back drop(making yourself the hero of course) and then suggested because I think you’re a bloviated attention whore, I would some how be against the civil rights movement, as if some how you personify it.

You know, you think that I am only writing here and making news for my own benefit. Do you think I am making any money by offering alternative opinions to government policies that I believe are cruel? How the hell does this benefit me?

My life was much easier when I had a steady job… I chose to give it up and I choose to speak publicly here and in other places because I care about people other than myself. When I was a police officer I joined LEAP which resulted in a slew of problems for me at work BECAUSE I care about people other than myself.

I know several police officers who feel precisely as I do about the drug war but don't have the testicular fortitude to speak publicly and try and make a difference.

Why?

Probably because of people like you barking that they are attention whores. Perhaps if others in law enforcement had the balls to stand up for morality and sane treatment of human beings… I wouldn't be so alone.

Until they do, I'll tolerate your insults and hope that some day you'll grow some compassion.
Gabe

You took a page from your own life, superimposed it over a 60s back drop(making yourself the hero of course) and then suggested because I think you’re a bloviated attention whore, I would some how be against the civil rights movement, as if some how you personify it.

bloviated
Verb
1. Simple past tense and past participle of bloviate.

to bloviate
Verb
1. (US) To speak or discourse at length in a pompous or boastful manner.

So, what you wrote becomes "…because I think you’re a(n) attention whore spoke at length in a pompous manner". That makes no sense. Perhaps you meant the present participle, "bloviating"?

Regardless of the content of your writing, your continual malapropisms make it difficult to read, at the very least. Rather than trying to use words with which you're clearly not familiar, I suggest you try simply focusing on the content instead. That way, your true ideas will shine through.
thinkliberty

Seth,

You want the "legislative system" to remain intact. Others believe the system is violent and unrepairable.

You hate the keeniacs, because they are like the native american's fighting against the British empire. You want them to maintain the status quo and work within it's political system. You would have called the Indians "uncivilized" or "disingenuous" because they were not lining up to be slaughtered the traditional way.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/french…
"The British general expected to fight the way battles were fought in Europe with troops lined up on open fields and firing their weapons as they marched toward each other. The French and their Indian allies refused to fight in this manner, preferring instead to hide in the woods, donning clothes that made them difficult to see and shooting at British troops from behind the cover of trees. "

The political system is our non-violent battlefield, (our side is non-violent, politicos still believe in using violence. We will use this to our advantage.) — We don't have to play by their rules to win.

It's more fun to make a mockery of your "legislative system" as itself destructs.

You have a closed mind if you think the heroes of Keene haven't made a difference.

I can name a lot of things that the heroes of Keene have done to make a difference, but you asked for one and I have time give you one example: Statist thugs no longer kidnap shirtless women, after Cassidy stood up to them. Keene = 1.
Seth Cohn

I think all I have to say in response to your delusional view of yourself is:

Heika was arrested when? Oh right, and she was topless, wasn't she?

And for those I need to spell it out for:

Cassidy's arrest was wrongful, since the LAW WAS ALREADY SAYING SHE COULD DO IT. What victory? That she educated a policeman too ignorant of the law? Big deal. Ask Brad how many laws his fellow officers don't know by heart, and/or misunderstand, lots I suspect. That's not changing any laws for the better, only education. When CD by Keeniacs changes something, let me know. I can point to in-system changes affecting everyone for the better.
Gabe

thinkliberty –

While I sympathize with you, and in general I think we agree much more than we disagree, I still sometimes struggle with understanding your viewpoint. Did you see what I wrote above, in Comment #37? I'm curious to read your thoughts on it.
MaineShark

Because, clearly, the only purpose of liberty activism is to change laws.

Oh, wait, the purpose of liberty activism is actually to improve liberty? So reducing the degree to which innocent folks are assaulted by armed thugs, whether or not those thugs have statutory backing, is also a pro-liberty outcome?
Seth Cohn

Chase, re your distain for 'decorum':

Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naïve, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best.

– a very libertarian Robert A Heinlein

(and I must give credit to Erik Freeman for posting that on FB recently)
Chase Banks

Seth,

I have no problem with a bit of friction when it comes to dealing with state sociopaths.
thinkliberty

Seth,

"Heika was arrested when? Oh right, and she was topless"

She was arrested for being topless? Oh right, Keene's already won that battle, The cop couldn't kidnap her for being shirtless. That's cop number 2 that didn't kidnap a shirtless woman in Keene.. –Keene =2

The state supremacist had to come up with another lame excuse to kidnap a peaceful woman. The Not a Beer drinking game. Keene has international press for that today. –Keene = 3 now.

"That she educated a policeman too ignorant of the law? Big deal. Ask Brad"

Thanks for pointing out Brad. Ask him what he thinks about a Keene, I think that's Keene = 4 now.

"I can point to in-system changes affecting everyone for the better."

I can too — the "Not a Beer" city counsel drinking game.
thinkliberty

Gabe,

"I have a question for those who believe CD is the way to go. What do you think will happen eventually?"

I don't know what exactly what will happen eventually, I can't see in to the future.

I can't support an international violent killing machine that robs people via taxation, to kill women and children on the other side of the planet.

I hope state supremacist will stop killing people, the way white supremacists in the 50's gave up on violent segregation.

CD is the way to go because it shows that people who break the "law" are not bad people. CD shows that the bad people are the ones enforcing the "law."
Seth Cohn

Boy oh boy, Ian is good at teaching his faulty counting methods:

Toplessness was already legal, so subtract both 1 and 2…

Getting Press coverage is not a victory for liberty, it's press coverage.

People all over the world get press, it's not liberty wins unto themselves.

Subtract #3.

And Brad didn't work in Keene, so only by the longest stretch can you can it a victory for Keene, since all it added to Keene is one more unemployed guy who is a Keeniac. And I think you had plenty of those already. (nothing personal Brad, you are a good guy, but resorting to calling you one of the few 'victories' is pretty sad for a Keeniac track record) I'll be fair, since Brad moved to Keene, and call it a half victory, so Keene total = 0.5
thinkliberty

Seth,

"Toplessness was already legal"

If toplessness was legal, why was Cassidy kidnapped for being topless by someone working in your evil system?

"People all over the world get press, it’s not liberty wins unto themselves"

Getting international press coverage for the city counsel drinking game is not a victory for the state supremacist's version of liberty, but it’s great press coverage for everyone else.

"Brad didn’t work in Keene"

That's true Brad didn’t work in Keene. He worked in Epping, NH as a jackboot thug and now he is here on freekeene.com blogging for peaceful evolution.

The heroes of Keene are changing the hearts and mind of everyone in NH. Not just the people living in Keene. Is that great!? (I think it is.)

"If you are happy and you know it shake your chains" — Keene = 5
Paul

“I have a question for those who believe CD is the way to go. What do you think will happen eventually?”

Keep in mind that I support *good* CD, not all CD.

The goal of good CD is:

1. To illustrate, in a way average people can understand, the immorality/absurdity of a particular law. To register these issues/arguments in the public mind, and make it clear that all people do not consent. To get people to at least think.
2. For the police to obey their consciences, and use discretion, rather than just blindly enforcing the law. Ignoring an "illegal" puppeteer/manicurist/etc, especially when there's no complainant is an example of discretion. Shutting down a little girl's lemonade stand is an example of total lack of discretion.
3. To inspire/encourage others to work for freedom, either with CD, politics, or otherwise.
4. To make the enforcement of the bad law difficult and expensive.

etc.

The ultimate goal would be that either:

1. The bad law is repealed.
2. The bad law is effectively nullified, because police do not enforce it, juries will not convict, etc. The prohibition on driving on Sunday is an example of a law that has been effectively nullified.

Look at what Gandhi, or MLK accomplished with civil disobedience — I would consider their efforts successful.
thinkliberty

"Look at what Gandhi, or MLK accomplished with civil disobedience — I would consider their efforts successful."

How long did it take Gandhi or MLK to become successful with their civil disobedience?

MLK's activism alienated a lot of white supremacist. Keene's activism has alienated a lot of state supremacist.

I think it took one act of civil disobedience, because there was another act of civil disobedience to follow.

The first act was probably the hardest. Sam, Ian, Rich, Mike, etc… have all shown us they are not going to stop after they've been arrested once. There is more to come, this is just the beginning.

A lot of people told MLK that civil disobedience was the wrong thing to do, when he did it. Now people say it was the right thing to do.
Gabe

thinkliberty –

Thanks for the well-thought-out reply, I really appreciate it.

“I have a question for those who believe CD is the way to go. What do you think will happen eventually?”

I don’t know what exactly what will happen eventually, I can’t see in to the future.

I guess maybe that question on its own is misleading, without the rest of the paragraph. The next sentence in that paragraph was: "In other words, what is your goal, or expectation of result, if you do not want to work within the system?"

That's basically what I'm asking. I think you covered it later on in your post, for the most part. I wasn't asking you to predict the future, just what your desired future would be.

I can’t support an international violent killing machine that robs people via taxation, to kill women and children on the other side of the planet.

I agree with you 100%. These fake "wars" the government has engaged in are wrong on so many levels. Frankly, to me at least, it's not as upsetting as the oppression it rains on people whom it considers its own "citizens".

CD is the way to go because it shows that people who break the “law” are not bad people. CD shows that the bad people are the ones enforcing the “law.”

I think this is where we disagree. Here's why. I think most people see "fringe element willfully breaking a law" and they frown upon that action. This is because most people don't even realize the ridiculousness of the laws in the first place. They walk around with the mentality that it's illogical to willfully break a law, and the only reason a "sane" (ie, "non-criminal") person would break a law is by accident. "Oh? I was speeding? Oops, officer, I didn't realize it. Please take mercy upon me! I promise I'll be more careful next time!"

Note that I don't condone the mentality I'm describing, nor do I have this mentality myself. I'm just saying what I believe to be the prevailing mentality of people living in this country.

So, I'm skeptical that CD would demonstrate that "bad people are the ones enforcing the law”, because this idea implies that people take the time to consider the goodness of the law in the first place. They don't even get around to considering whether the people who break the “law” are or are not bad people.

To use your analogy of racial segregation in the 50's, yes there were plenty of protests and clashes. However, it wasn't until the 60's, when people who disagreed with segregation were in elected leadership positions, that things started to change. Similarly, I believe the best way to change "the system" is by taking it over. In other words, having people in elected leadership positions who believe in liberty and can dismantle from within.

As I've said before, I think you and I want to end up basically in the same place, or very close to it. I think we just differ on the best way to get there.
thinkliberty

"I think most people see “fringe element willfully breaking a law” and they frown upon that action."

At the beginning this is how people saw Gandhi and MLK. They were a "fringe element willfully braking the law." People like you frowned upon that action.

"it wasn’t until the 60’s, when people who disagreed with segregation were in elected leadership positions"

Do you think civil disobedience allowed people who disagreed with segregation to get elected? Could they be elected without MLK's civil disobedience? History says no.
Gabe

At the beginning this is how people saw Gandhi and MLK. They were a “fringe element willfully braking the law.” People like you frowned upon that action.

What makes you think that people like me frowned upon it? Or, more to the point, what makes you think I frown upon CD?

My whole point is that I don't understand the expected outcome, but support your right to do it. I've stated that idea this entire time.

I really wish you would stop accusing me of supporting things that I never claimed to support, or writing things that I never wrote. It's hurtful and frustrating when we're trying to have a constructive dialogue.
thinkliberty

You said:
"I think this is where we disagree. Here’s why. I think most people see “fringe element willfully breaking a law” and they frown upon that action."

I was letting you defend your statement.

I think we are like most people. We don't frown upon civil disobedience.

But you are afraid that other people can't see what we see? Because they are too stupid? Or can't understand it some how? I don't buy it.

"This is because most people don’t even realize the ridiculousness of the laws in the first place."

How do you get people who "don't realize the ridiculousness of the laws in the first place" to realize the ridiculousness of the laws?

I believe the answer is civil disobedience.

"I don’t understand the expected outcome"

The expected outcome is the end of violent state supremacy, like the end of violent white supremacy in the past.
http://www.qualityrental.com JamesButabi

As a business owner myself with ambitions to bring services to NH, im surprised at the anonymous business owners' discontent with activists working to reduce the size and scope of the system. Surely he/she feels the ever growing and significant suction of resources, time, and creativity from his business due to ever increasing taxation and regulation. If the effects are not felt yet, consider yourself lucky. I highly suggest you think twice about negating the support of liberty loving individuals into your area and rather rally their support to help minimize or reduce this ever growing burden.
Bradley Jardis

As a business owner myself with ambitions to bring services to NH, im surprised at the anonymous business owners' discontent with activists working to reduce the size and scope of the system.

James,

Thank you for your kind comments.

Sadly, most people who attack us will only come to appreciate what we stand for when the government decides to pick on them. Even though these particular people attack us and our efforts now… we will accept them as our friends and fellow liberty lovers when they realize that the government is a violent monopoly that frequently interferes with peaceful commerce.

Awesome that you're looking at moving to NH! Your home and family of liberty lovers awaits you!
Paul

I think it'd be great to make a list of pro-liberty activist owned businesses, so folks like me can choose to patronize them.