Thanks but no tanks, Keene!

by | Jan 28, 2012 | Announcement, Copblock, New Hampshire, Police, Politics | 29 comments

The residents of Keene have so far said no to the fear peddlers.
May their stand give all of us the courage to do the same.
-Robert Koehler

The purpose of this post is to share all BEARCAT-related content.
Transparency and the free flow of information are good.

Need to get up-to-speed about this issue?

Watch the excellent coverage in the video below or read the post:
Cowardly City Councilors Ignore the People, Vote for BEARCAT 9-4

Still interested in learning more? Below you’ll find:

  • an overview of Keene police chief Ken Meola and some Keene city councilors attempt to quietly acquire an armored vehicle
  • background of the not-too-surprising pushback from Keene residents
  • related videos and documents, including the 11-page grant request
  • a list of links to related content, and more

(BEARCAT stands for Ballistic Engineered Armored Response Counter Attack Truck)

The grant request to obtain the vehicle submitted to the the federal Department of Homeland Security was signed by:

  • John Maclean – city manager, 603.357.9804 – jmaclean@ci.keene.nh.us
  • Kenneth J Meola – police chief, 603.357.9813 – kmeola@ci.keene.nh.us
  • Martha Landry – finance director, 603.357.9805 – mlandry@ci.keene.nh.us

Keene BEARCAT Grant

*note page-by-page summary at bottom of post

BEARCAT-RELATED CONTENT

in chronological order:

HELP KEEP KEENE BEARCAT-FREE!

  • Join us at city hall to oppose the BEARCAT at the full city council meeting, Thursday, March 1st, 7pm [Facebook event]
  • Feeds below will stream city council meeting March 1st at 7pm (though stream may start earlier):
  • Call city councilors contact name/numbers here. If we turn around this vote, we can make history by being the only place to ever refuse a BEARCAT, and perhaps we could start a trend of more refusals around the country
  • Download the anti-BEARCAT flyer and distribute
  • Sign the online petition and share your thoughts on the issue as a comment
  • Share resources with those in your sphere: http://FreeKeene.com/BEARCAT & http://ThanksButNoTanks.com
  • Contact Mike Clark (involvement given below) if you want to help collect signatures on the ground or in another capacity. He’ll get you petition sheets or help you implement your idea keep Keene tank-free.
    via email: flesh dot clarky at gmail dot com
    via Facebook
  • Join us at city hall, February 2nd to “Oppose the BEARCAT” at the Full City Council Meeting, 7-10pm [Facebook event]
  • Join us at city hall for public comment at Finance Committee Meeting, Thursday, Feb. 9th, 5:30pm [Facebook event]
  • Join us at city hall to Oppose the BEARCAT the Full City Council Meeting, Thursday, Feb. 16th 7pm [Facebook event]

 

As Keene residents explain in the video below, there’s simply no need for such a militarized vehicle in beautiful Keene.


 

Watch: 24-minute video from packed Feb. 9th public comment session, includes quote by Keene mayor Kendall Lane “We’re going to have our own tank!”

Sign the online petition to keep Keene BEARCAT-free!

Learn more:

An Open Letter to Keene Residents:

Hello neighbor,

I know you’re busy but you will probably conclude that it’s worth your time to continue reading.

Many of us choose to call Keene home simply because it’s such an awesome community. That might not be as true in the near future if the Keene Police Department takes delivery of a BEARCAT (an armored vehicle) thanks to grant from the federal Department of Homeland Security.

City councilors essentially said ‘why not take it, it’s free!’ Yet you, the taxpayer, are now on the hook for its maintenance and operational costs. I bet you can think of many things you’d rather spend your money on in lieu of being saddled with the upkeep for an armored vehicle.

Do you want to live in a police state? Do you really believe that Keene “needs” a BEARCAT? Can you point to even one incident that has happened in town that warrants its acquisition? And why is the DHS, whose mission is aimed to “prevent terrorism” marketing the armored vehicle as a “rescue” vehicle?

Armored tanks have absolutely no proper place in a peaceful society such as we have here in Keene. The corrupt federal government would like for you to believe that your level of safety is somehow higher when the police have military equipment at their disposal, but the fact is that by far the most common use of such equipment remains to be the issuance of warrants against peaceful individuals; often accompanied by the destruction of their property, the death of their pets, and their own imprisonment, all without even the benefit of a fair trial beforehand. Additionally, such raids have resulted in needless deaths not only of the suspects involved, but of police officers, children, and innocent bystanders.

This is the future that the continued militarization of police promises for the city of Keene.

Many police departments in the country now have helicopters and drones in their arsenal of military equipment which is appropriate to nothing but war and death. Where does it end, and where do we as a peaceful group of people stand up and say NO to this tyranny?

Join us in saying “Thanks, but no tanks”

Reaction to the BEARCAT:
From Keene resident Heika Courser:
Please don’t hide behind the guise of this being an all-terrain vehicle that will assist in the once in a great while rescues that occur. BEARCAT stands for Ballistic Engineered Armored Response Counter Attack Truck. Again, utter nonsense!
From area resident Craig Dallas Rice:

Homeland Security says we better beware. So do the Keene police. So does the Keene City Council. But what do the citizens of Keene say? . . .

I do not believe that we really need this vehicle in Keene. The Monadnock Region is one of the safest areas in the world. As it stands now, the police and rescue personnel do what they do with adequate and modern equipment. They can continue to improve the way they handle situations in the future without military-style enhancement. Policing will still involve the legal use of violence in some situations but if they need a tank or an airstrike, I guess it is still better to call the National Guard.

If we the people still have any say, I hope we will be heard to say no to the BearCat.

From Grafton, NH resident John Connel:

As Pastor of Peaceful Assembly Church (organized in Grafton, NH), I urge you to please STOP this madness. You are taking us down the same path as all those “evil” governments in history. I could die of a broaken heart caused by what this country is becoming, and that the Military Industrial Compex is now even pushing its’ way into local governments.

They told us about those “evil” governments “over there” – particularly those in our own lifetime. So, we all know where this path leads.
When the history is written of us, let it say that the good folks in Keene, NH helped us step back from the brink. Please – let it say that.
I pray for you all.
Peace.

The video below was made by LENCO, the manufacturer of the BEARCAT vehicle. LENCO pulled their video on/around Feb. 7th in reaction to the unwanted attention their pending BEARCAT delivery to Keene PD had attracted. The video below was ripped prior to that and re-uploaded to another YouTube channel.


Mike Clark, born 27 years ago in Keene, long-time No Job 2 Odd employee and drummer of Keene-based Aggressive by Nature, has spearheaded the charge to say: Thanks but no tanks, Keene!

He wrote and printed petitions imploring the Keene city council to reconsider their pro-tank decision and allow for public discussion on the matter. In just a few days Clark personally collected almost 150 signatures, which he brought to the city council meeting.

Per his conversations with city public officials, Clark expected that by presenting the petitions now, he’d secure a spot on the agenda of the following week’s finance committing meeting. Instead, Keene mayor Kendall W. Lane took the request as “information,” effectively shelving any public discussion. That was on January 12th.

On January 26th Clark’s own father – Terry Clark (the lone city council member that didn’t vote in favor of the BEARCAT), put in a motion to reconsider. Apparently a request made by a city council member carried more weight with the council than did a request submitted by a concerned resident as it was agreed to have public discussion:

-on February 2nd, the issue will be raised at the 7pm city council meeting.

-on February 9th, public comment will occur at the 5:30pm finance committee meeting.

Make it clear that Keene should remain BEARCAT-free!

 

Thanks but no tanks, Keene!

BEARCAT Flyer (double-sided)

  • pg. 1 –
    the “Grant Application Instructions” from the Dept. of Homeland Security
    Additional guidelines could be obtained through the URL indicated: a FEMA page
    Also provided, a checklist “for your convenience in preparing, completing and submitting your grant application”
    At the bottom of the page contact information is listed as:
    NH Department of Safety – Grants Management Unit
    Commissioner’s Office-Second Floor
    33 Hazen Drive
    Concrod, NH 03305
    which, according to this site, would mean the grant request was handled by either John Barthelmes, Pamela Urban-Morin or Robert Pragoff
  • pg. 2 –
    “Lead Applicant Agency” was identified as the “Keene Police Department”
    “Partnering Cities/Counties/Agencies” listed “All Cheshire County Law Enforcement Agencies”
    House and Senate district were requested
    “Project Name” was identified as “Keene/Cheshire County Specialized CBRNE/WMD Rescue Vehicle” with an “Amount” of “$285,993”
    Later the “CBRNE/WMD” was further detailed as “prevention, protection, response, recovery”
  • pg. 3 –
    the name, title, contact information and signatures of three involved with the grant request:
    John Maclean (city manager), 603.357.9804 – jmaclean@ci.keene.nh.us
    Kenneth J Meola (police chief), 603.357.9813 – kmeola@ci.keene.nh.us
    Martha Landry (finance direction), 603.357.9805 – mlandry@ci.keene.nh.us
  • pg. 4 –
    The start of the grant submitted for the Keene/Cheshire County Specialized CBRNE/WMD Rescue Vehicle
    One typical sentence: “The terrorism threat is far reaching and often unforeseen. . .”
  • pg. 5 –
    The grant submission continues
    Focus shifts to natural disaster and “situations” when a BEARCAT “was needed”
    The solidification of relationships between Cheshire County public safety agencies due to the shared nature of the BEARCAT
  • pg. 6 –
    The grant submission continues
    Focus shifts to reasons why Keene might experience a terrorist event including “numerous private manufacturing facilities that deal with multi-government/military agencies . . .
    The collaboration between agencies is again stressed
  • pg. 7 –
    The “Scope of work (30 words or less)”: “The scope of this project is the purchase of the LENCO BEARCAT Specialized Mission CBRNE Rescue Vehicle as outlined in the attached LENCO quote: 7741-1.”
  • pg. 8 –
    “Section III: Project” posed questions to be answered by grant-requesting party
  • pg. 9 –
    “Section III: Project” continued with questions answered
    It’s outlines that LENCO will train one Keene police department employee, who will in-turn train others
    The BEARCAT is to be picked-up by four “department members”
    Insurance would be through the “City of Keene”
    Keene police department is responsible for upkeep costs
    Services will be done by someone “from the departments’ tactical team line item.”
    It’s built on a Ford F-550 chassis that will be serviced by the “City of Keene Fleet Services”
    Vehicle lifespan is “estimated to be 20 years”
  • pg. 10 –
    “Section III: Project” continued with questions answered
    The question “Does this project include multi-jurisdiction explosive attack prevention planning?” was answered with “YES. This vehicle will allow multi-jurisdictional planning to begin . . .:
    “Law Enforcement Funding Amount” is listed as “$283,993”
  • pg. 11 –
    “Local Funding Amount” is listed at “$0.00”

Now you can subscribe to Free Keene via email!

Don't miss a single post!


Subscribe
Notify of
guest


29 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Karen

The Census Bureau has been used by the DHS to identify Arab American neighborhoods as recently as 2002.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/30/us/homeland-sec…

0
0
Reply
Russ

Yeah, when he acts like the Japanese Internment is so inconceivable today, I think he's protesting too much. The gov't has a vicious little concentration camp for Muslims in Cuba right now, and federal politicians and courts totally support it. Before 9/11 I always used to wonder how the Japanese Internment could have happened in 20th Century America, but I don't wonder about that now. I could easily imagine the federal gov't doing something similar today to Muslims if its interventions in the Middle East provoke another attack anything like 9/11.

0
0
Reply
bigScrotum

Sam, How about taking care of some old business? it’s not nice to cry wolf and leave a mess. Your credibility is on the line. bigScrotum on Mon, 24th May 2010 6:37 pm Sam, didn’t you retract the accusations made about this incident on the “Talkback” state radio show a few weeks ago? Given your paranoid conclusory and mistaken interpretation of the facts, and because this post has risen its ugly head to the top (a month later), why don’t you take the time to correct the record with respect to what really happened that night. A correction post at… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Jake Witmer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XtuPvwBa2U

Tell him that if he steps inside and volunteers to run "the animal circus gauntlet", that you will answer one "yes or no" question. …"And that's the best I can do."

LOL.

0
0
Reply
Gabe

Can someone explain to me the harm in responding with how many people live in a residence, leaving everything else blank, and then sending it in? That's what I did, and I didn't feel like it was a violation of my personal liberties. I mean, that part *is* actually in the constitution: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the…

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

@Gabe:

1. The 5th amendment to the constitution says you have the right to remain silent. If you should choose to remain silent then you are following their "Constitution"

2. If I don't want anyone to represent me in Washington D.C, then I should not be enumerated for representation in the Census.

0
0
Reply
Paul

I don't think you did anything wrong, to give them the number of people there, Gabe. That's your choice.

It is a violation of your personal liberties for them to demand that information from you, however, and threaten to fine you if you don't give it to them. It'd be wrong for me to do it to you, and it's wrong for them too.

0
0
Reply
Gabe

Thank you both for your replies. What I meant was: do you believe it's a violation or endangerment of constitutional and/or personal liberty to provide the number of people in the residence? @thinkliberty: (1) From the 5th Amendment: "… nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation". I'm assuming this is the part you're referring to. Now, granted, the government does many of these things anyway (especially the parts… Read more »

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

Gabe.

1. Has to do with depriving me of my liberty.

2. I can represent myself, do you need someone to represent you?

0
0
Reply
Sam Dodson

Hi Gabe,

I simply want to know how the obligation was created for me to follow what some other dead people wrote down and signed hundreds of years ago.

I don't believe in their system, and seek the creation of a more peaceful voluntary society based on consent. Lysander's work does a great job of explaining the details. I would really recommend the audio book or pdf depending on what you prefer.

0
0
Reply
Paul

Gabe, the fact that it's written in the constitution doesn't make such coercion right, any more than the fact that slavery was in the constitution made slavery right. Morality is not defined as whatever the constitution says. I agree that the government would be far better if it were to stay within the bounds of the constitution, and I think getting the government to respect those boundaries is a worthy goal, but even the constitution itself endorses a good deal of unacceptable behavior. In short, I believe the same moral rules apply to everyone (for example, to initiate aggressive force/violence… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

@think:

Rather than merely address the word "representative", would you like to address the concept of "representative democracy"?

@Sam:

With what country is your citizenship associated?

@Paul:

Since when has morality become a societal tenet? Morals are a set of personal values. Perhaps you're thinking of ethics.

Because if you really mean morals, you're starting to sound like those bible-thumping republicans who go on and on, spouting off what they believe are "moral imperatives" about pornography and the definition of marriage.

0
0
Reply
Paul

Ethics or morals, however you want to refer to it, threatening aggressive violence against someone in order to extract money or personal information from them, is wrong behavior. I believe that's called theft, or extortion. Do you disagree?

If I were to write down on a sheet of paper, "I now have the right to take Gabe's stuff", or "I now have the right to demand personal information from Gabe", it wouldn't magically give me the right to do so — and neither does the constitution make it ok for those in government to violate the rights of their neighbors.

0
0
Reply
Sam Dodson

Who says I have to have a country of citizenship?

Am I only free to pick from a set of established masters under which I may be allowed to live?

Sounds like a pretty awful place.

0
0
Reply
theKINGofKEENE

JEEZUS FOOKING AITCH KEY-RYST-ON-A POPE-SICKLE STICK-EM-UP, THIS IS A RUBBERY!!!…Well what I just wrote makes more sense than you boneheads. *THINK*! When the census worker comes to your door, *THEY ALREADY KNOW WHO YOU ARE, AGE "RACE",etc…EVERYTHING! The *ONLY* real purpose of the census workers, is to confirm & verify what THEY ALRERADY KNOW ABOUT YOU!!! No, I really don't want to know just how stupid you people are! I spent 1/2 hour, mebbe 45 minutes, having a great chat w/the African-born College student census worker! Learned *TONS* about their WHOLE OPERATION! What useful intel did any of *YOU* fuck-ups… Read more »

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

Gabe, >would you like to address the concept of “representative democracy”? You mean the form of government where people vote in secret elections to extort money and freedom from their neighbors? It's barbaric, I don't believe in it. Do you believe you can legitimately have your elected representatives demand I answer their questions? What do you think gives them the right to go door to door and harass people for their "census"? If the Jehovah Witness come to my door and I tell them I am not interested in their beliefs they leave me alone. Your census takers that believe… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

@Paul:

I agree with basically everything you wrote. However, call me daft, but I fail to see the connection between an enumeration of the number of people in order to appropriate proportional representation, and theft or extortion. I would like to understand. Perhaps you could help me?

@Sam:

Can you tell me if you live within the commonly-established borders of the US? And if so, within which state? Obviously, there is no penalty for declining to answer. 😉 Except, of course, the inability to continue our discussion.

@think:

Do you choose to vote in local, state, or federal elections?

0
0
Reply
Paul

@Gabe You're daft! Just kidding ;). I'm glad we agree on what I said above, and I like your manner of discussion. 🙂 If I don't give them my info, they threaten fines — that's extorting information. Furthermore, the census itself is paid for with money taken from me by force. I certainly agree that the census, on the scale of things the government does, is pretty innocuous. Still, it's not fundamentally moral/ethical behavior. Just think: What would happen if you did what they do? Answer: You'd be in jail. If they paid for the census workers with money obtained… Read more »

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

Gabe,

No. I don't believe voting secret elections or voting for someone to represent me.( I can represent myself.)

Vote fraud in NH makes voting here a waste of time.

Video evidence available here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDIFYSRffE4
and here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKQEQ7qHvgM

0
0
Reply
bil

I just told the guy that came to the door that I had already sent in the form in another state.They had the wrong name anyway.They have my info,but it is all for a non-existant address.They always know where to find me,anyway. 🙁 —bil

0
0
Reply
Gabe

@think: I too believe I can represent myself, when I go about my daily business. At no point did I make any claim to the contrary. Your continued claim of "I can represent myself" leads me to believe you either don't understand the notion of a representative democracy, or don't believe it exists, or both. So far you've claimed you won't answer the census questions because of your 5th Amendment rights, but then excoriated the same "form of government where people vote in secret elections to extort money and freedom from their neighbors" of which that very same 5th Amendment… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

@Paul:

To be honest, I've never heard any first- or second-hand accounts of anyone being threatened or fined for not responding to the census. In fact, I don't think I responded in 2000, and faced no reproach.

Can you indicate where on the form any of these fines or threats are stated?
http://www.census.gov/schools/pdf/2010form_info.p…

Also, can you share with us how you know the source of the money used to pay for census workers? Or are you implying that the entirety of money collected by the government is illegitimate?

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

Gabe, >And without exercising your right to vote, you have no legitimate or recognizable chance to engender any change in the system you view as “barbaric”. I also find the motorcycle gangs and street gangs barbaric, I am not going to join them so I can try electing kinder and gentler gang leaders. Are you? According to your logic, you have no legitimate or recognizable chance to change any gang if you don't join them; However you can help engender the gangs if you join them, so you have a vote. You haven't given me any real reason to believe… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Sam Dodson

@Gabe- I need to understand your questions better to answer them:

"Can you tell me if you live within the commonly-established borders of the US? "

What is the US border? How was that created?

And if so, within which state?

Factually what is "the state of New Hampshire" in your words?

Now Gabe you didn't answer my previous questions, and this gets to be a discussion as you mentioned. If you want to continue our discussion, I need to you go back and answer the two questions you ignored.

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

Gabe has ignored every single one of my questions.

0
0
Reply
Paul

@Gabe http://2010.census.gov/2010census/how/questions.p… Click the question, "do I have to fill the form in?" They certainly like to popularize the notion that there are penalties for not responding, both here and elsewhere. They also frequently say "It's the law". I have seen many first and second hand accounts of people receiving threatening notices and letters — although it seems that they do not often follow through on them. I just read an article on drudge stating that census workers may demand entry to your apartment from you landlord, while you are away, on threat of a $500 fine. Certainly the idea… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

@Sam: Your questions were: "Who says I have to have a country of citizenship? Am I only free to pick from a set of established masters under which I may be allowed to live? " My reply was an attempt to clarify what you meant by your questions. If you live within the (governmentally-claimed) border of the US, and you were born here and are not a citizen of another country, you are de jure and de facto considered a citizen, whether you like it or not. As proof, how do you access this website, and the internet in general?… Read more »

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

It's only far fetch to you, because you believe in barbaric religion of statism. Do you believe in freedom of religion? I don’t believe in the religion of the state, do you think I should be thrown in jail when I don't pay tithing/taxes to your "elected" leaders? Should I be punished for not participating in your statist ceremonies? When I choose not to answer your census workers? Do they have the right to demand money from me and put me in prison if I don't pay? Do they have the right to kill me if I refuse to go… Read more »

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

Gabe:
> If you live within the (governmentally-claimed) border of the US, and you were born
> here and are not a citizen of another country, you are de jure and de facto
> considered a citizen, whether you like it or not.

You sound just like the religious zealots who ran the church of england:

They claimed every English citizen was required by law to belong to the Church of England and contribute to its support. It didn't matter if they had a different belief.

0
0
Reply
Jake Witmer

CENSUSNONSENSUS GENERATR: How many people live here, (and what are their various drug trips)? Snow white and the shaeven dwarfsh, and the eight divided septa. One "law abiding citizen" who does no drugs of any kind, carrying three circuit boards, for a thermite-filled helicopter Four khat-chewing terrorist ragheads Twelve illegal mexicans each carrying a one-hitter of schwag weed, each with a pickup truck full of scrap metal Three meth crazed destructive device salesmen Four AIPAC-supporting Jews For The Preservation of Nuke Ownership Thirty-six Chambermaids of the Wu-Tang each equipped with venom-dipped porcupine quills, and a radio-frequency-trained MEMS-laden Atrax robustus One… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

"Do you believe in freedom of religion?" Yes. "I don’t believe in the religion of the state, do you think I should be thrown in jail when I don’t pay tithing/taxes to your “elected” leaders?" I would categorize that question as neither correct nor incorrect, but rather "not even wrong". "Should I be punished for not participating in your statist ceremonies?" No. I never said anything to the contrary. "When I choose not to answer your census workers?" Since when are they mine? You seem to be directing a lot of anger at me, and ascribing a lot of property… Read more »

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

Gabe, It's your government if believe in it. They are your census workers because they are being paid by your government to do what they do. If census worker come to my door that's okay the first time, (as long as they are volunteering to do it on their own free time and are not taking blood money as payment for it.) but when I tell them not interested and not to come back, I expect them to not to come back and harass me with the same message over and over again. Would you like it if a violent… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

@Paul:

Makes sense. Reminded me of this, which I came across a few weeks ago:
http://jbs.org/blog/2010-census-legal-obligations…

0
0
Reply
Gabe

@think: You've miscategorized me, yet again. I wrote that "…you are de jure and de facto considered a citizen". That was my assertion of what the government believes, not what I believe. I wrote that "without exercising your right to vote, you have no legitimate or recognizable chance to engender any change". At no point did I compel you to vote, implore you to vote, or claim that you "need" to vote, under threat of any kind of penalty or punishment. I merely asserted my belief that you have an ostensible right to vote, under the Constitution of the United… Read more »

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

>"do you believe it’s a violation or endangerment of constitutional and/or personal liberty to provide the number of people in the residence?" Yes. The number of people living at my house is my business. If you want me to tell you how many people live there, then don't belong to an organization that steals from, tortures and murders people. >"If you want to live on your own, with essentially 0 contact with others, that’s your right. You don’t seem to be doing that" You believe in a false dichotomy I don't want to live on my own, I want to… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

What is this false dichotomy? What are the two sides you see? To be honest, it seems you're the one who believes in a false dichotomy. You seem to think there are only two choices: (1) "a voluntary society"; and (2) "government torture[s], murder[s] and extort[s] people". On the other hand, I tried to make an explicit reference to a continuum, by stating "I prefer to keep my obligations to others at a minimum". "I bought all the things I own with the fruits of my labor. " Did you pay for them with the "blood money" our corrupt government… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Paul

Gabe, I'll answer too, just so you can have a couple perspectives. 🙂 You seem to think there are only two choices: (1) “a voluntary society”; and (2) “government torture[s], murder[s] and extort[s] people”. I do think it's unfair to attribute support for current government behavior to anyone who believes in a state at all. A few here (probably thinkliberty) will disagree with me, but I absolutely consider minarchists & constitutionalists invaluable allies (I believe you're one, right?). Ron Paul, Judge Nepolitano (although he may actually be a voluntaryist), Stossel, etc, as well as the constitutionalist and minarchist components of… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

@Paul: Frankly, thinkliberty strikes me as a bit of a hypocrite, as I originally pointed out in Comment #21. I'm not sure he/she actually read that comment though. ///I absolutely consider minarchists & constitutionalists invaluable allies (I believe you’re one, right?)/// Minarchist, Propertarian, Consequentialist libertarian, complainer … pick any one you'd like. None of them are one-size-fits-all. ///I don’t think it’s fair to criticize someone for using FRNs, any more than it’s fair to criticize someone for paying income taxes. The government has made it pretty hard to live and avoid these things./// And I don't think it's fair to… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Paul

And I don’t think it’s fair to live in a fantasy world where one draws comparisons between “motorcycle gangs and street gangs” and the man in the video above, or is led to write things such as: “Who says I have to have a country of citizenship?” “What is the US border?” “I don’t want anyone to represent me in Washington D.C.” “Factually what is “the state of New Hampshire” in your words?” “Am I only free to pick from a set of established masters under which I may be allowed to live?” …while at the same time being an… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

I agree with you, when it comes to speaking out against what you believe is unfair, unjust, and unacceptable. However, in my opinion, the statements I quoted don't do that. They presume that the day has already come when these malfeasances have been eradicated. Consider the actual statements: What is the US border? Is that a real question? Does anyone with half a brain on this site not know the actual, incontrovertible answer to that? Factually what is “the state of New Hampshire” in your words? Again, I find this question at best bizarre, and at worst demented. Maybe that's… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Paul

@Gabe I can understand where you're coming from, and I absolutely see how these questions could be misinterpreted (I really didn't until you pointed it out). I think the reason some pro-liberty people respond to certain questions in this way, is they're trying to point out that they don't believe in the premises our current government are based on. I think just about everyone recognizes that there certainly is an organization calling itself the "US government", which enforces borders, recognizes citizenship, etc. For example: What is the US border?Is that a real question? Does anyone with half a brain on… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

So here's where the hypocrisy starts to creep through, in my mind. Does the asker of these questions have a SSN assigned to them (even if they don't want one, or don't care to acknowledge it)? How about a passport? A state-issued driver's license? Yes, of course I see the logic in what you're trying to say, by asking these questions. Maybe I'm just more of a believer in "baby steps" than the authors of some of the other comments. I think he’s trying to make the point that borders are a legal fiction. What about the current government, in… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Paul

So here’s where the hypocrisy starts to creep through, in my mind. Does the asker of these questions have a SSN assigned to them (even if they don’t want one, or don’t care to acknowledge it)? How about a passport? A state-issued driver’s license? If he did, I'm not sure I understand why that would make him a hypocrite. Maybe I’m just more of a believer in “baby steps” than the authors of some of the other comments. That's probably an accurate description. What about the current government, in your opinion, is not a legal fiction? I know I'm the… Read more »

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

The prisons that your government will put free people in for victim-less crimes or not paying their extortion aren't a fiction. The guns they will kill peaceful people with for resisting being kidnapped and caged are not a fiction. But the authority they claim and their right to kill and/or cage peaceful people with are legal fictions. I used to use liberty dollars, but your government kidnapped the owner and stole all their silver and gold. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/arti… I guess I am a hypocrite when I use FRNs, because I don't want the government's armed thugs to kidnap and cage or… Read more »

0
0
Reply
cyberdoo78

Someone is mentally masturbating and didn't invite me? The shame to you! Funniness aside, I believe in no treason. The Constitution, which is a piece of paper that purports to create an entity called 'the United States of America', is just that, a piece of paper. Anything contained on that piece of paper is in reality nothing more then fiction, as if the works of Mark Twain, or Edgar Allen Poe can create a reality by their mere existence, The document referred to as the Constitution can not do that which no other collections of words on paper have done… Read more »

0
0
Reply
Gabe

The prisons that your government will put free people in for victim-less crimes or not paying their extortion aren’t a fiction. I agree. The guns they will kill peaceful people with for resisting being kidnapped and caged are not a fiction. I agree. But the authority they claim and their right to kill and/or cage peaceful people with are legal fictions. I agree. I guess I am a hypocrite when I use FRNs, because I don’t want the government’s armed thugs to kidnap and cage or kill me. Not exactly. That's called looking out for yourself. The fact that you… Read more »

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

Yawn, If you think you can fix your government with voting then do it. You haven't given me any reasons to support or believe in what your government is doing. I've given you plenty of good reasons why no one should support your government. I don't believe that the government's authority exists. I said that the government's prisons, thugs and guns exist. You keep ignoring the things I've said over and over again. When you ignore the things that I type it get's boring. I guess the discussion is done, because you've ignored the things I've said more than once… Read more »

0
0
Reply
cyberdoo78

@Gabe

Ask and answer, do individuals have the right to life? Do they have the right to liberty? Do they have the right to property?

0
0
Reply
Gabe

You're funny. Refer to Comment #21. It was 5 paragraphs long, the last of which was only 3 lines. You only responded to the last 3 lines. That's just one example. Who's ignoring who?

You haven’t given me any reasons to support or believe in what your government is doing. I’ve given you plenty of good reasons why no one should support your government.

I never claimed I was trying to give any reason to support it. You claimed I was. I never did.

0
0
Reply
thinkliberty

I keep repeating that I don't believe in your violent corrupt government, You keep failing to give me a reason why I should believe in it.

You claim your government is legitimate, but can't give me a reason why I should support it or believe that it's legitimate.

This conversation is stupid.

0
0
Reply
29
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x